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Old 23-09-2014, 09:56   #226
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

No idea if you guys have the lamination lay up of your boats, but here is mine.

1. Gelcoat
2 Skin coat 3/4 oz mat
3 Back up coat 1 1/2 oz mat
4.. 5 main laminates (note one laminate 1 layer 1 1/2 oz mat and 1 layer of 24 oz woven roving)
5. ...3 extra laminates in in chainplate área from sheer to keel 120 inches wide
6. 2 extra laminates from wáter line to keel
7. Seven overlaping laminates at the joining of the two halves
8. 7 laminates from waterline to the keel overlapping
9. 5 laminates over lead ballast
10. Stem stem below waterline have a total of 25 laminates . stem above waterline 23 laminates.

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Old 23-09-2014, 10:10   #227
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

Quote:
Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
No idea if you guys have the lamination lay up of your boats, but here is mine.

1. Gelcoat
2 Skin coat 3/4 oz mat
3 Back up coat 1 1/2 oz mat
4.. 5 main laminates (note one laminate 1 layer 1 1/2 oz mat and 1 layer of 24 oz woven roving)
5. ...3 extra laminates in in chainplate área from sheer to keel 120 inches wide
6. 2 extra laminates from wáter line to keel
7. Seven overlaping laminates at the joining of the two halves
8. 7 laminates from waterline to the keel overlapping
9. 5 laminates over lead ballast
10. Stem stem below waterline have a total of 25 laminates . stem above waterline 23 laminates.

Sounds like I built it! Like a tank, what make is it.
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Old 23-09-2014, 10:40   #228
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

Its a CSY 44 with a doublé spreader tall spar cutter riged, but i have some more.

Hull: flexural strenght 35900 PSI Deck: 30900 PSI
Hull tensile strenght: 21400 psi Deck : 13400 psi
Interlaminate sheer strenght: Hull at 1800 psi Deck at 1400 psi
Percentage of glass fiber to Resin ratio. Hull at 40% deck at 41 % .
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Old 23-09-2014, 10:40   #229
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

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Originally Posted by Cadence View Post
To digress. I had asked how vacuum bagging is accomplished within a reasonable cure time? If someone has the answer I would like to know.

I know it is used extensively and touted for production boats, is it a better way or is it only a labor saving method to achieve a price point?
Vacuum bagging IF done correctly insures a better saturation of the laminates with the correct ratio of resin to the laminates. Too much resin makes it weaker and too little will leave voids and that's bad. On large boats it is hard to accomplish this within the cure time without lots of planning, manpower and expensive equipment. Most production boats are going the infusion route with vacuum bagging. You must do vacuum bagging with infusion.
I suspect the super high end boats like Gunboat are using prepreg fiber. The epoxy is already in the carbon fiber laminate from the manufacturer but needs an autoclave to set properly. That's a big oven for the 60' cat.
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Old 23-09-2014, 11:10   #230
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

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Vacuum bagging IF done correctly insures a better saturation of the laminates with the correct ratio of resin to the laminates. Too much resin makes it weaker and too little will leave voids and that's bad. On large boats it is hard to accomplish this within the cure time without lots of planning, manpower and expensive equipment. Most production boats are going the infusion route with vacuum bagging. You must do vacuum bagging with infusion.
I suspect the super high end boats like Gunboat are using prepreg fiber. The epoxy is already in the carbon fiber laminate from the manufacturer but needs an autoclave to set properly. That's a big oven for the 60' cat.
I've watched Lockheed put aircraft wings in an autoclave but that was 45 years age.Biggest damn oven I've ever seen. Just a contractor and don't know what they where making. They where almost a secretive as being on a boomer sub..
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Old 23-09-2014, 11:13   #231
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

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Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
What is missing of course is the weight of the glass
He told you - 3408 triax is 34oz stitched fabric (unidirectional fibers oriented and stitched in three directions) with an 8oz layer of mat. So 43oz total in one fabric layer.

4 layers of this with a 50% resin ration will be 0.28" thick.

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Old 23-09-2014, 11:17   #232
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

Quote:
Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Its a CSY 44 with a doublé spreader tall spar cutter riged, but i have some more.

Hull: flexural strenght 35900 PSI Deck: 30900 PSI
Hull tensile strenght: 21400 psi Deck : 13400 psi
Interlaminate sheer strenght: Hull at 1800 psi Deck at 1400 psi
Percentage of glass fiber to Resin ratio. Hull at 40% deck at 41 % .
They are proud of their product and should be. Your the first one to confirm, this old brain's memory, that a 60/40 ratio +/- is the correct ratio.
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Old 23-09-2014, 11:58   #233
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

Quote:
Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
No idea if you guys have the lamination lay up of your boats, but here is mine.

1. Gelcoat
2 Skin coat 3/4 oz mat
3 Back up coat 1 1/2 oz mat
4.. 5 main laminates (note one laminate 1 layer 1 1/2 oz mat and 1 layer of 24 oz woven roving)
5. ...3 extra laminates in in chainplate área from sheer to keel 120 inches wide
6. 2 extra laminates from wáter line to keel
7. Seven overlaping laminates at the joining of the two halves
8. 7 laminates from waterline to the keel overlapping
9. 5 laminates over lead ballast
10. Stem stem below waterline have a total of 25 laminates . stem above waterline 23 laminates.

Thanks for the detail.

One bit of information missing from the above description is the type of resin used. I presume ortho polyester with a bit of vinyl ester in gel coat ?

This is just the sort of data that is needed so we can compare similar sized boats. Even if we don't understand the detail there are plenty of people that will "translate" for us on CF.

I cannot understand people buying a boat without these particulars. This is the fundamental structure of the boat. A cruising boat is subject to a lot of unexpected stresses such as colliding with floating objects.

.
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Old 23-09-2014, 12:02   #234
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
He told you - 3408 triax is 34oz stitched fabric (unidirectional fibers oriented and stitched in three directions) with an 8oz layer of mat. So 43oz total in one fabric layer.

4 layers of this with a 50% resin ration will be 0.28" thick.

Mark
Yeah, I figured that out when I saw the 3408, I just skipped right over that
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Old 23-09-2014, 12:06   #235
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

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They are proud of their product and should be. Your the first one to confirm, this old brain's memory, that a 60/40 ratio +/- is the correct ratio.
Depends I think on the type of glass and resin.
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Old 23-09-2014, 12:17   #236
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

Quote:
Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
Thanks for the detail.

One bit of information missing from the above description is the type of resin used. I presume ortho polyester with a bit of vinyl ester in gel coat ?

This is just the sort of data that is needed so we can compare similar sized boats. Even if we don't understand the detail there are plenty of people that will "translate" for us on CF.

I cannot understand people buying a boat without these particulars. This is the fundamental structure of the boat. A cruising boat is subject to a lot of unexpected stresses such as colliding with floating objects.

.
Polyester resin is used, but dont be fooled because most producton yachts this days are still using polyester and just vinylester for osmotic protection in some cases, and trying to see same specs por any catamarán or even monohull seems imposible , they are like a sect, ok they claim the hull is light and strong but no backup specs to claim its true or not, they send cut out samples to a laboratory to see if the laminate pass the mínimum standars?? i doubt in many cases... maybe this sound rude but to me they are trying to hide the fact that most models are a big pile of dogshit masked by huge platforms cover it by lots of White gelcoat, dont ask me why, after see lots of examples in the boatyard one reach the conclusión that most of this boats are not even close to sustain a soft grounding without extensive damage, not even in some Fountain Pajots the rigors of a travelift, my 2 cents.
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Old 23-09-2014, 12:37   #237
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

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Originally Posted by neilpride View Post
Polyester resin is used, but dont be fooled because most producton yachts this days are still using polyester and just vinylester for osmotic protection in some cases
The resin used is an area where multihulls tend to be better than monohulls with a much greater use expoxy and vinyl ester resins.

Why are so few premium monohulls made using these better resins for all, or at least a large part of the structure? One gripe with all yachts is that they often imply, with cleverly written brochures, that the use of there use is extensive even when the reality is that it is only a very small part of the laminate schedule.
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Old 23-09-2014, 13:24   #238
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

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Depends I think on the type of glass and resin.
Let's not nit, or is it knit pick. That was the best we have seen on a layup schedule. Most of us wouldn't know one resin from the other. All I know is casting, laminating and iso. which is for tanks since it don't not leach MEK.
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Old 23-09-2014, 13:29   #239
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

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Originally Posted by Cadence View Post
Let's not nit, or is it knit pick. That was the best we have seen on a layup schedule. Most of us wouldn't know one resin from the other. All I know is casting, laminating and iso. which is for tanks since it don't not leach MEK.
It's not nit picking, if you use the glass my boat is made form and have a 40% resin ratio, you will have dry spots, my type of glass needs 50%, some types if you end up with 50% you have a layup that is heavier and weaker than it should be.
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Old 23-09-2014, 13:45   #240
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

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It's not nit picking, if you use the glass my boat is made form and have a 40% resin ratio, you will have dry spots, my type of glass needs 50%, some types if you end up with 50% you have a layup that is heavier and weaker than it should be.
I believe he specified mat and roving and the weights. Nothing exotic? Just old school probably hand laid and the MFG stated 60/40. Why don't you post the lamination of your hull? We may all learn something.
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