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Old 21-09-2014, 13:19   #166
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

Good Enough is Perfect

Any fool can build a bridge, it takes real skill to build one just strong enough.
A boat built like a tank is not a good boat, it is a good tank.
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Old 21-09-2014, 15:03   #167
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

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Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Perhaps you missed my point. In this case, a thicker heavier hull would not be necessary for much higher strength. Only the use of better materials and a bit more labor is required. The boat could weigh exactly the same and be much, much stronger. Not talking anything exotic either, just plain old industry standard quality work. Not asking for a free lunch, just would prefer a quality one that matches the price point.
And yet the thickness (or thinness) of the hull has been the basis for all this criticism hasn't it?
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Old 21-09-2014, 16:13   #168
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
And yet the thickness (or thinness) of the hull has been the basis for all this criticism hasn't it?
I think your splitting hairs here 44.
We can argue thick or thin when the issue is strength.
Evidence dictates that the hull would benefit from beefing up a little. It didnt do well in the circumstances.
Thats all.
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Old 21-09-2014, 16:35   #169
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

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Originally Posted by weavis View Post
I think your splitting hairs here 44.

We can argue thick or thin when the issue is strength.

Evidence dictates that the hull would benefit from beefing up a little. It didnt do well in the circumstances.

Thats all.

I'm sure most boats in that circumstance wouldn't have done well. So when is a hull strong enough? I'm sure you would get different answers from different people. If the people at Lagoon are satisfied, and their customers are satisfied then they are built strong enough. If someone isn't satisfied with the strength of the Lagoon layup I would suggest looking elsewhere or having a custom boat built to one's specs or building their own as 44C has done.


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Old 21-09-2014, 16:41   #170
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

Quote:
Originally Posted by weavis View Post
I think your splitting hairs here 44.
We can argue thick or thin when the issue is strength.
Evidence dictates that the hull would benefit from beefing up a little. It didnt do well in the circumstances.
Thats all.
What exactly were the circumstances? Unless I missed something, I can't find much detail of the circumstances at all, in this thread or on the original Facebook discussion. The photos were obviously taken after the event & in reasonably calm conditions, but what was it really like during the beaching/grounding etc. Also some of the other photos on the Facebook posts show the beach with a very rocky foreshore very close by. How long was it sitting getting pounded? Was it originally holed by rocks? Did the weather come up again after the beaching to pound it hard. Who knows.

Not much info available to make assertions about how well it stood up when we don't really know how much & what type of punishment it took before breaking up.
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Old 21-09-2014, 17:38   #171
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

Are we trying to hold Lagoon to a higher standard than other high volume production boats?
Why? Because it's a Cat?
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Old 21-09-2014, 18:01   #172
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

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Are we trying to hold Lagoon to a higher standard than other high volume production boats?
Why? Because it's a Cat?



Because it costs twice as much?
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Old 21-09-2014, 18:06   #173
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

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Originally Posted by weavis View Post
I think your splitting hairs here 44.
We can argue thick or thin when the issue is strength.
Evidence dictates that the hull would benefit from beefing up a little. It didnt do well in the circumstances.
Thats all.



Being rational on the multi forum is frowned upon. You are supposed to defend all multis at any cost, period! Regardless of the photo evidence...
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Old 21-09-2014, 18:10   #174
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

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Because it costs twice as much?

Just because something is expensive, does not necessarily mean it's worth it,
Many different names of Automobiles come to mind
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Old 21-09-2014, 19:21   #175
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

IIRC, a few years back the good folks at Pacific Seacraft had an ad running that showed a Crealock 37 of their manufacture that had been pounding on the reef outside of the Ala Wai marina in Hono. After a few days, it was pulled off, and had only cosmetic damage.

If they were truthful, and if my memory is correct (always doubtful), then here is a case of a production FRP hull that DID survived some reef pounding. The fact that it was a monohull is not relevant to this discussion.

For those who argue that they do not expect to encounter such conditions and thus don't care about absolute hull strength... well, I bet that the majority of people who run onto reefs/rocks/ sand banks didn't plan to do so. It seems pretty obvious that the ability to withstand such trauma is a very good thing.

Looking back at the oft quoted "Cabo Disaster" of 1983, where many boats went up on a fairly soft sand beach. Of all of them, two sailed again. One was Joshua, a fairly rough steel round bilge 40 footer. She was dented in. The folks to whom Bernard gave her used a bulldozer to push her back into the water (possibly adding some new dents). They later used sledge hammers to bash the hull back out to about its normal shape, and after cleaning up the sand and other mess, the young owners sailed off. The other survivor was an Olsen 40. This was a Santa Cruz built ULDB boat, of (gasp) completely cored FRP construction. It was essentially undamaged. I don't remember how she was returned to the water, but she was then sailed away with no repairs other than clean up.

All the other boats were write-offs... heavy and not-so-heavy cruising boats, smashed to bits. Go figger...

Cheers,

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Old 21-09-2014, 19:32   #176
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
IIRC, a few years back the good folks at Pacific Seacraft had an ad running that showed a Crealock 37 of their manufacture that had been pounding on the reef outside of the Ala Wai marina in Hono. After a few days, it was pulled off, and had only cosmetic damage.

If they were truthful, and if my memory is correct (always doubtful), then here is a case of a production FRP hull that DID survived some reef pounding. The fact that it was a monohull is not relevant to this discussion.

For those who argue that they do not expect to encounter such conditions and thus don't care about absolute hull strength... well, I bet that the majority of people who run onto reefs/rocks/ sand banks didn't plan to do so. It seems pretty obvious that the ability to withstand such trauma is a very good thing.

Cheers,

Jim


To be fair, I have posted pics to this forum of a Crealock 37 which survived a similar pounding in a Florida hurricane with only "cosmetic damage". Except when we peeled it large areas of the hull were severely fractured. The boat was totaled. The difference is, the owners had sailed her here (Seattle) via Panama, without noticing the damage! But she would not pass survey.
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Old 21-09-2014, 19:44   #177
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

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Originally Posted by minaret View Post
To be fair, I have posted pics to this forum of a Crealock 37 which survived a similar pounding in a Florida hurricane with only "cosmetic damage". Except when we peeled it large areas of the hull were severely fractured. The boat was totaled. The difference is, the owners had sailed her here (Seattle) via Panama, without noticing the damage! But she would not pass survey.
Fascinating! So, how did the damage manifest itself? I suspect that it was being peeled for blister remediation, and the fractured laminate thus exposed...? But an interesting story... one that the "if it ain't broke" folks might use to support their ways!

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Old 21-09-2014, 19:55   #178
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

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Fascinating! So, how did the damage manifest itself? I suspect that it was being peeled for blister remediation, and the fractured laminate thus exposed...? But an interesting story... one that the "if it ain't broke" folks might use to support their ways!

Jim
Hammer sounding revealed delam and fracturing. The pics are in my refit thread.


I see your point. However, I can't agree with that crowd. What if the boat suffered a second grounding? What if interior structure was compromised, a la Blue Pearl? Just because they successfully sailed it so far doesn't mean it was safe to do so. They were lucky.

Which brings me to another point, one I've tried to make many times here:failure modes. When something which is stressed beyond its failure point fails, HOW it fails is critical. A rich layup will experience totally different failure modes than a proper laminate. It will fail more like steel, actually cracking and breaking. A proper laminate will fracture heavily and lose most of its panel stiffness, but still be there. Having repaired many boats which went on the rocks, I've seen it again and again.
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Old 21-09-2014, 20:15   #179
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

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Hammer sounding revealed delam and fracturing. The pics are in my refit thread.

So it sounds like the discovery was part of a survey. If it was a pre-purchase survey, I bet the owner was devastated and the prospective purchaser so very glad he hired a good surveyor! What a shock for the owner... one wonders if he had any suspicions ahead of time? Odd noises, difficulties in keeping the rig tight and so on.

Thanks for bringing it up.

Jim
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Old 21-09-2014, 20:19   #180
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

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Because it costs twice as much?

Twice as much as what? A similar sized cat? Probably not.


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