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Old 21-09-2014, 10:37   #151
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

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Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
If I were buying a boat to regularly park it on a reef then I might consider another boat.

If I buy a Lagoon and I want a light boat that can carry a lot with the caveat that I shouldn't park it on a reef then I may be perfectly fine with it.

You can't really call a design spec a defect. It is a manufacturing defect when it is manufactured incorrectly. It is a design defect when it does not meet the design intent or goals.

My boat has a 5/8 - 3/4 hull. I don't intend to park my boat on a reef and test out the "design"

A J24 is about 1,000kg lighter than my boat. I wouldn't park either one on a reef but the J24 gains 20 minutes 100 on me. They were designed for different purpose.

And as to the "all the Lagoon breakups" how about we talk about the sailors in those cases rather than the boat.

I have no affair with Lagoon or need to defend them but I find the Lagoon bashing unfair.
I agree, I don't like to see overblown comments or bashing about a product, I try to concentrate on factual statements, or pics. There has been a lot more good info than bashing in this thread, IMHO.

People don't normally run their boats aground, for those of us who are not in the boat repair business I think it's nice to know which boats can take a bit more accidental abuse than others.

I'm sure the type of materials used, in addition to the thickness, help determine the strength of the hull. I wouldn't expect any hull to withstand days of pounding on a rocky shore, but there is a wide range of potential damage to a hull that bumped into a reef or a rock. One might get away with a deep gouge, a different boat might end up with a good sized hole.

I think it's helpful to know how different boats compare, I'm willing to sacrifice 1/2 kt of speed for a little more material below the waterline. That's just my preference, I'm definitely looking for a condo-maran rather than a racer with a little bit of room.
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Old 21-09-2014, 10:54   #152
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

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Originally Posted by minaret View Post
Perhaps you missed my point. In this case, a thicker heavier hull would not be necessary for much higher strength. Only the use of better materials and a bit more labor is required. The boat could weigh exactly the same and be much, much stronger. Not talking anything exotic either, just plain old industry standard quality work. Not asking for a free lunch, just would prefer a quality one that matches the price point.
this was the point I thought most would have observed. You cant equate thickness with strength. Its about materials and layup technique. It takes a little longer to do.

I am not a professional boatbuilder but have dabbled in some moderate repairs with glass. I have had the good fortune to be advised by professionals and was amazed how strength was achieved in different ways. If it was left to me I would have just slapped resin all over the mat and that would have been it.

I was really taken aback by the photos.
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Old 21-09-2014, 11:04   #153
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

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this was the point I thought most would have observed. You cant equate thickness with strength. Its about materials and layup technique. It takes a little longer to do.

I am not a professional boatbuilder but have dabbled in some moderate repairs with glass. I have had the good fortune to be advised by professionals and was amazed how strength was achieved in different ways. If it was left to me I would have just slapped resin all over the mat and that would have been it.

I was really taken aback by the photos.
Are you suggestingthat Lagoon does not use a good layup technique? Have you seen how a Lagoon is built?

I have seen the production and the layup for the 390-450 boats. In the past I have worked with building extremely stressed airplane wings. So I believe I understand a little bit what is required for a good strength to weight ratio.

I found the layup and vacuum injection of the resin pretty good at the Lagoon factory. Sure thay could use kevlar and carbon, but I would not want to pay for it.
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Old 21-09-2014, 11:08   #154
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

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Originally Posted by roetter View Post
Are you suggestingthat Lagoon does not use a good layup technique? Have you seen how a Lagoon is built?

I have seen the production and the layup for the 390-450 boats. In the past I have worked with building extremely stressed airplane wings. So I believe I understand a little bit what is required for a good strength to weight ratio.

I found the layup and vacuum injection of the resin pretty good at the Lagoon factory. Sure thay could use kevlar and carbon, but I would not want to pay for it.
Im not suggesting anything. Im just looking at the photos and know it could be much stronger for a little more money.
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Old 21-09-2014, 11:08   #155
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

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No worries, mate! I'm nothing if not thick skinned...
Now wouldn't it be nice if those Lagoon's were as thick skinned as you!
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Old 21-09-2014, 11:15   #156
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

I don't think this thread has been entirely fair in focusing on Lagoons, but I do greatly respect Minaret's opinion.

Could I ask Minaret to perhaps rate those hulls that he has repaired? I am not sure what would be the best format to express this information. Perhaps a score of 0-10 for the quality and/or strength of boat hulls?

I realise this is the Multihull forum, but I would be interested in the results for monohulls as well if there are no objections.
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Old 21-09-2014, 11:56   #157
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

An article at http://www.catamaransite.com/hurricane_photos.html about Catalac that went on the rocks in a storm, i hope has some relevance here. The Lagoon I can imagine wouldn't be so well off.


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Old 21-09-2014, 11:57   #158
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
I don't think this thread has been entirely fair in focusing on Lagoons, but I do greatly respect Minaret's opinion.

Could I ask Minaret to perhaps rate those hulls that he has repaired? I am not sure what would be the best format to express this information. Perhaps a score of 0-10 for the quality and/or strength of boat hulls?

I realise this is the Multihull forum, but I would be interested in the results for monohulls as well if there are no objections.


I wouldn't know where to start. Too many boats, and in any case each must be taken on it's individual merits. Also too complex. Would the highest rating be given for both strength and light weight? How about economy? lbs per ft lbs of resistance per dollars? How about ease of maintenance? A steel or alu boat might well win on all points but that one. It's just not simple.
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Old 21-09-2014, 12:02   #159
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

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Originally Posted by roetter View Post
Are you suggestingthat Lagoon does not use a good layup technique? Have you seen how a Lagoon is built?

I have seen the production and the layup for the 390-450 boats. In the past I have worked with building extremely stressed airplane wings. So I believe I understand a little bit what is required for a good strength to weight ratio.

I found the layup and vacuum injection of the resin pretty good at the Lagoon factory. Sure thay could use kevlar and carbon, but I would not want to pay for it.

What was "pretty good" about it? Did you burn test a sample? If anyone has a Lagoon cutout (neilpride?) that they'd like me to burn test, PM me and I'll happily do it and post pics here. Then we'd know for certain whether that's a resin rich layup or not. Did you note the laminate schedule? No one has said anything about technique, only the materials involved, and the amount of same. How many plies of which materials went into the layup? Where?
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Old 21-09-2014, 12:04   #160
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

Maybe something like this with the individual models
http://youtu.be/YIglL5vks4g
Not volunteering my boat though...
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Old 21-09-2014, 12:12   #161
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

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I wouldn't know where to start.
OK, maybe that was asking too much, but it was worth a try.

As alternative could you rate your best friends partners from 0-10
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Old 21-09-2014, 12:21   #162
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

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Originally Posted by minaret View Post
What was "pretty good" about it? Did you burn test a sample? If anyone has a Lagoon cutout (neilpride?) that they'd like me to burn test, PM me and I'll happily do it and post pics here. Then we'd know for certain whether that's a resin rich layup or not. Did you note the laminate schedule? No one has said anything about technique, only the materials involved, and the amount of same. How many plies of which materials went into the layup? Where?
Good point! Resin rich is brittle and weak. Saturating and rolling out the excess with pressure, per layer, will give a good laminate. Maybe vacuum bagging does the same thing? I doubt it.
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Old 21-09-2014, 12:23   #163
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

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OK, maybe that was asking too much, but it was worth a try.

As alternative could you rate your best friends partners from 0-10




Nice parallel. You see how many friends I've made by stating my opinion on just this one partner!
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Old 21-09-2014, 12:27   #164
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

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Good point! Resin rich is brittle and weak. Saturating and rolling out the excess with pressure, per layer, will give a good laminate. Maybe vacuum bagging does the same thing? I doubt it.


Vacuum bagging can give a much leaner layup than is possible by hand. Good laminators shoot for 50/50 ratio by hand, the best can acheive 60/40. A high quality bagged laminate can achieve as low as 35% resin ratio (the magic number for epoxy). This is one of the reasons so many process materials are involved. After the lam, it's peel ply, perf, blanket bleeder, bag. The perf used and the bag pressure determine final resin ratio. Also resin viscosity, hence ambient temperature matters too. As does volume of laminate applied. This is why burn testing is important. Without it you have only personal experience to go on, or how a layup looks. Other modern methods, such as infusion, actually tend to make a rich layup, as opposed to traditional bagging.
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Old 21-09-2014, 13:03   #165
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

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Vacuum bagging can give a much leaner layup than is possible by hand. Good laminators shoot for 50/50 ratio by hand, the best can acheive 60/40. A high quality bagged laminate can achieve as low as 35% resin ratio (the magic number for epoxy). This is one of the reasons so many process materials are involved. After the lam, it's peel ply, perf, blanket bleeder, bag. The perf used and the bag pressure determine final resin ratio. Also resin viscosity, hence ambient temperature matters too. As does volume of laminate applied. This is why burn testing is important. Without it you have only personal experience to go on, or how a layup looks. Other modern methods, such as infusion, actually tend to make a rich layup, as opposed to traditional bagging.
60/40 is quite achievable by hand. You just have to bust your ass. Now are we talking epoxy or polyester? Yep temp. is critical I feel sure, commercial builders have that controlled? Airplane wings go into a kiln.

This poboy couldn't afford epoxy for other than a west application. I like 90 deg. not for me but curing of polyester.

No one has said anything about the directional orientation of the layup or the over lap.

As they say everyone has one and maybe I am one?
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