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Old 21-09-2014, 02:20   #136
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

Maybe Rolf will chime in as it was his 450. I do know he went straight back and purchased another new L450 so he can't have been too unhappy with the construction quality. The 450 pictured above did safely sail from France to the Caribbean, as did his current boat. It didn't survive a grounding or the subsequent towing from the reef as you can clearly see..
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Old 21-09-2014, 02:30   #137
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

Quote:
Originally Posted by weavis View Post
Im not sure its Lagoon Bashing.

Nobody buys a vessel to park them on a reef. In the event it happens, we know a certain type of laminate schedule stands a better chance of holding it together and in the event of a rupture, it would not cause as much damage.
I suppose my point was not clear or eloquently stated.

The photo posted of a ruined Lagoon is alarmist and inflationary. Clearly that hull did not "fail" due to the design or manufacturing defect.

The "product" was clearly abused and misused and we (I) am presuming it was aground for some period of time, maybe on a reef, and got bashed to death.

Presuming my scenario is even close there is no hull type that could be expected to survive it. But maybe there are. Maybe that's what some people want and value above other things like payload and speed.

If you value "severe" grounding ability, maybe you don't buy a Lagoon. Maybe you buy something else.

All designs are a trade off and I am sure Lagoon has some smart people working there and aiming for a design compromise based on their perception of market needs.

Thicker hull, less load carrying, heavier, slower, yada, yada... There is no free lunch.

Someone said above that maybe there needs to be stronger owner feedback to Lagoon. I am sure Lagoon has their ways of finding out what the market wants in terms of design.

They are pretty successful and as we all know buyers vote with their wallets.
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Old 21-09-2014, 02:32   #138
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
I suppose my point was not clear or eloquently stated.

The photo posted of a ruined Lagoon is alarmist and inflationary. Clearly that hull did not "fail" due to the design or manufacturing defect.

The "product" was clearly abused and misused and we (I) am presuming it was aground for some period of time, maybe on a reef, and got bashed to death.

Presuming my scenario is even close there is no hull type that could be expected to survive it. But maybe there are. Maybe that's what some people want and value above other things like payload and speed.

If you value "severe" grounding ability, maybe you don't buy a Lagoon. Maybe you buy something else.

All designs are a trade off and I am sure Lagoon has some smart people working there and aiming for a design compromise based on their perception of market needs.

Thicker hull, less load carrying, heavier, slower, yada, yada... There is no free lunch.

Someone said above that maybe there needs to be stronger owner feedback to Lagoon. I am sure Lagoon has their ways of finding out what the market wants in terms of design.

They are pretty successful and as we all know buyers vote with their wallets.
Now that was eloquently stated
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Old 21-09-2014, 02:36   #139
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

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Originally Posted by weavis View Post
Now that was eloquently stated

I admit I wish I could afford a Lagoon cat, guess am stuck with my old beaten Catalac 10m! Very correct no hull would have been able to withstand a reef beating like this lagoon must have gotten. Still be great to get detailed info on hull construction from all cat builders and links to fair objective reviews so that we can make informed comments, decisions.


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Old 21-09-2014, 02:49   #140
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

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Originally Posted by noelex 77 View Post
This Lagoon is obviously a write off, and looking at the extensive damage it is hard to imagine that any boat (yes even an aluminium one ) could have survived.
You are probably right, but it seems if you are going to park on rocks there are stronger boats. Personally I was pretty impressed at the pics of this ovni which at surface appears to have had as serious a bang as the 450 dragged of the reef.

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Old 21-09-2014, 02:55   #141
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goosebumps View Post
I admit I wish I could afford a Lagoon cat, guess am stuck with my old beaten Catalac 10m! Very correct no hull would have been able to withstand a reef beating like this lagoon must have gotten. Still be great to get detailed info on hull construction from all cat builders and links to fair objective reviews so that we can make informed comments, decisions.


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One of the beefs I have with boat manufacturers in general, is that mass production boats are made to the maximisation of profit to a denominator that is just above acceptable in some areas.

As stated previously, I have a love of one or two of the Lagoon models and personally found an affinity in a 380. Is it a good boat? Well I like it. Others like the 400 the 450 the.. you get the picture.

This was a severe grounding and subsequent reef removal which exposed the construction techniques. Would a stronger laminate schedule have prevented it? probably not, but in fairness, it probably would not have been as badly damaged either.

The surprising thing for me in this viewing of the post incident hull, is that the general boating crowd (us) are willing to sit back and accept a minimum standard that frankly is a touch minimum.

If safety REALLY is the criteria, then the minimum standard needs to rise a little.

I would like to know if the 380 has a different laminate schedule.... just so I can continue drooling...
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Old 21-09-2014, 04:24   #142
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

Its just the way things are these days. If you looked at many new mono hulls the layups are probably not that much heavier.
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Old 21-09-2014, 04:54   #143
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

Get a steel mono if multi-day reef-pounding is important for you!


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Old 21-09-2014, 04:59   #144
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goosebumps View Post
I admit I wish I could afford a Lagoon cat, guess am stuck with my old beaten Catalac 10m! Very correct no hull would have been able to withstand a reef beating like this lagoon must have gotten. Still be great to get detailed info on hull construction from all cat builders and links to fair objective reviews so that we can make informed comments, decisions.


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Absolutely - I am all for informed buying. I encourage people to assess their priorities and make buying decisions on their needs.

If the manufacturers don't want their techniques out there there are other compelling reasons to withhold the information - like competition - as opposed to some "fool the buyer" type conspiracy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by weavis View Post
One of the beefs I have with boat manufacturers in general, is that mass production boats are made to the maximisation of profit to a denominator that is just above acceptable in some areas.

<snip>

The surprising thing for me in this viewing of the post incident hull, is that the general boating crowd (us) are willing to sit back and accept a minimum standard that frankly is a touch minimum.

If safety REALLY is the criteria, then the minimum standard needs to rise a little.

I would like to know if the 380 has a different laminate schedule.... just so I can continue drooling...
Maximizing profit is not a bad thing. It's the boating business not boating hobby.

The market wants and demands a catamaran at a certain price point and the manufacturer has to stay in business.

There are more "robust" boats and there are a lot of manufacturers that are no longer around. Some designers built and laid up boats that quite frankly were expensive to build, could not take advantage of large production techniques because of volume and quite frankly those business plans don't always survive the real world economics...

The 380 is #2 on my list. When I get closer and more serious I will be weighing a lot of factors. It will depend on where I want to cruise and what I expect the boat to do.

Heavy grounding and reef survivability will not be high on my list. Everyone will have different needs.
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Old 21-09-2014, 05:08   #145
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbo485 View Post
Get a steel mono if multi-day reef-pounding is important for you!


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Just keep it serious, not here to de ate mono or multihull and use one beheaded lagoon to promote either. I mentioned in earlier post the problem of scratching damage to hull, as a very common occurence, nothing to do with reef surfing! Another issue I got with the beamy new era cat design is that if my catalac 10m with its 4.75meter beam, and mind you 90cm draught, seems largest acceptable size to gunkhole properly in the real tropical island environment, the 7+meter beamed cata simply will have to anchor in more vulnarable anchorage, not being able to anchor in the many beautifull coves. It seems to me that lots of sailor cat designers simply dont gunkhole, or do serious coastal sailing. And the scratch, hull damage opportunities for the beamy cats is very real. Even getting into a marina can be extremely hull damaging.


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Old 21-09-2014, 05:18   #146
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

Quote:
Originally Posted by weavis View Post
If safety REALLY is the criteria, then the minimum standard needs to rise a little.
One of the sad parts is that the hull construction is not a high percentage of the overall boat cost. Figures around 30% are commonly quoted.

A substantially better built hull need not add as much as we think to overall cost.

The biggest driving force will come when the boat buying public start asking questions about hull construction and factoring the answers into their buying decision.
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Old 21-09-2014, 05:21   #147
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

I must admit I don't really understand that philosophy of being able to escape busy anchorages in a smaller boat. Our draft is 1..3m and beam 7.25m, but I would rarely come across somewhere that it is more beneficial than a 2m draft keel boat. I would never want to anchor with less than a meter under the keel or less than 2m abeam of something, especially in tidal waters
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Old 21-09-2014, 05:46   #148
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

Last month when we had big hurricane generated surf in Ventura, Ca. we were walking our dogs at the beach inside the harbor breakwater. A small catamaran was sailing out in lumpy seas in about a 20 kt. breeze. When they got to the end of the breakwater they were capsized and my wife went to tell one of 3 lifeguards on duty, but he said no worries. So I took off running a block to the breakwater and climbed it and started jumping from boulder to boulder towards the end. Halfway out they righted the boat, but I kept going just to see them. Within 20 seconds they were on the seaward side of the breakwater, 10 feet out where 12 foot seas were breaking directly on the rocks. I started moving as fast as a fat 61 year old with 3 back surgeries can again. The first big wave bumped them into the rocks, then the next one, 1 or 2 seconds later tipped them over mast to the stones and dashed them on the breakwater. I got to the spot above them maybe 30 seconds later. 15 feet below me were two of my elders clinging to the rocks with waves breaking completely over them. There boat had no piece bigger then a cubic foot left save a 10 foot piece of the mast. Their boat disintegrated in less then a minute. I know that's apples and oranges, but it amazed me. One more wave and only the two old men and the mast piece were left in view. As a side note I was so glad when I saw them as I was pretty sure I was going to leap in fully dressed to try and pull unconscious sailors out. Instead I watched the waves, which completely covered me on top with blue water, and told them when to scramble and when to hang on for dear life. They had like armor padding on them, and the one that didn't appear to be in shock was wearing a helmet. 3 minutes later a lifeguard arrived to tell us it was not safe on the jetty and that we would have to leave.
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Old 21-09-2014, 08:37   #149
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
I suppose my point was not clear or eloquently stated.

The photo posted of a ruined Lagoon is alarmist and inflationary. Clearly that hull did not "fail" due to the design or manufacturing defect.

The "product" was clearly abused and misused and we (I) am presuming it was aground for some period of time, maybe on a reef, and got bashed to death.

Presuming my scenario is even close there is no hull type that could be expected to survive it. But maybe there are. Maybe that's what some people want and value above other things like payload and speed.

If you value "severe" grounding ability, maybe you don't buy a Lagoon. Maybe you buy something else.

All designs are a trade off and I am sure Lagoon has some smart people working there and aiming for a design compromise based on their perception of market needs.

Thicker hull, less load carrying, heavier, slower, yada, yada... There is no free lunch.

Someone said above that maybe there needs to be stronger owner feedback to Lagoon. I am sure Lagoon has their ways of finding out what the market wants in terms of design.

They are pretty successful and as we all know buyers vote with their wallets.



Perhaps you missed my point. In this case, a thicker heavier hull would not be necessary for much higher strength. Only the use of better materials and a bit more labor is required. The boat could weigh exactly the same and be much, much stronger. Not talking anything exotic either, just plain old industry standard quality work. Not asking for a free lunch, just would prefer a quality one that matches the price point.
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Old 21-09-2014, 10:16   #150
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Re: Lagoon Cat smashed in Thailand

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Originally Posted by socaldmax View Post
This is the pic I'm referring to. Almost like a snapshot of the other one, halfway through the hull pounding process. Do you feel this is a strong hull?

Thanks for the blow up. I can make out one layer of roving which appears to be the inside layup. To me that is similar to laying rebar on the very top of a poured cement slab and expecting the slab not to crack?
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