Lagoon 52, think twice before purchasing it

[socaldmax]

Originally Posted by TOT

Frank
Who did you actually pay when you brought the boat, if you paid the agent then he is accountable.


SV TOT
Wayne ��

The agent did not build the boat or get paid $1M for a boat. He got a commission to sell a $1M boat built by Lagoon and the vast majority of the money went to Lagoon.

I would do what any judge would do: follow the money, and nail them to the wall.

If you bought a Chevy car and it needed immediate warranty repairs, would you go back to the salesman or to the Service Dept? The Service Dept. Sure, you could go back to try to talk to the salesman, but he's just going to open the door and shove you into...

the Service Dept. Where they actually fix things. Salesmen just sell you a dream.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

I am not sure why you decided to go for an ocean crossing on a new boat.
b.

Ahem, maybe because the company that sold him the boat represented it as being suitable for ocean crossings?

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by socaldmax

The agent did not build the boat or get paid $1M for a boat. He got a commission to sell a $1M boat built by Lagoon and the vast majority of the money went to Lagoon.

I would do what any judge would do: follow the money, and nail them to the wall.

Won't work. Lagoon sold a boat to the dealer and the dealer sold a boat to the customer. There is no direct relation between buyer and lagoon themself.

If you wanted an invoice directly from lagoon and pay them directly they charge 2000 euro extra and do this only for exceptional reasons and only for legal entities. If they did it with private customers they would have to deal with all the european consumer rights. They obviously don't want that.

But i think this is true for other builders as well.

[socaldmax]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

Yacht manufacturing is not like automobile manufacturing. Many of the systems on a yacht are not warranted by the manufacturer because the yacht building industry is not vertically integrated the way automobile industry is so the comparison isn't valid. In an automobile the auto drive functions cannot be switched out for another brand. But in a yacht you can get any brand you like for auto pilot and later you can switch it out for another brand. Same thing applies to winches, windlass, engine, gear train and a host of other components. Each of these subsystems are branded and warranted by their own manufacturer. If it were not so then costs of yachts would be much more than they are and quality would be much worse. Can you imagine if each yacht manufacturer built its own engines or electronic navigation? It would be a disaster. So trying to compare yacht building with automobile industry is just silly.

I'm afraid you are mistaken.

Does Dodge make their own air conditioner compressor? Nope, York sells them all of their A/C compressors, the same ones they sell to Ford and Chevy.

Guess who makes all of the common rail diesel fuel systems in the world? Bosch.

Guess who makes steering boxes? Saginaw.

Guess who makes all of the Weatherpak connectors?

NONE of the auto mfrs. make their own subsystems, they buy their fuel systems (pumps, lines, filter, injectors, sensors), sound systems, instruments, sensors, brake pads, wheels, tires, A/C components, ECMs, glass, brakes, bearings, connectors, etc from subcontractors.

If your injectors go out on your Chevy diesel, Bosch doesn't service your truck, GM does and deals with Bosch on a contractor to supplier level. Everything in your car is warrantied by the name plate on the car, even though it's a collection of subsystems all purchased from subs.

So it should be exactly the same with Lagoon. Yes, those are systems built by someone else, but they were purchased by Lagoon and resold to the buyer as a complete yacht. Lagoon is the name on the hull, Lagoon should stand behind their product.

If not, there are plenty of discerning people out there who will simply buy from yacht builders who value their reputations and will respond to their customer's needs. We need to vote with our wallets. I gave myself 5 yrs to research catamarans before I decide to buy and live aboard one. I'm reading every day (more importantly on owner's groups), and that's how much research I'll do before I spend my money.

[socaldmax]

Originally Posted by rabbi

Won't work. Lagoon sold a boat to the dealer and the dealer sold a boat to the customer. There is no direct relation between buyer and lagoon themself.

If you wanted an invoice directly from lagoon and pay them directly they charge 2000 euro extra and do this only for exceptional reasons and only for legal entities. If they did it with private customers they would have to deal with all the european consumer rights. They obviously don't want that.

But i think this is true for other builders as well.

I think anyone intelligent enough to get appointed to the bench will be sharp enough to see right through that thin smoke screen.


Ever park your car and read all of the fine print on the ticket claiming they have no responsibility if your car burns up or is stolen? It's all lies, printed to scare away the less educated. Most people know that the parking co. that took your money created a bailment that includes reasonable measures to ensure security and responsibility if those measures fail.

Not the guy who punched your parking ticket stub, (let's call him a "yacht agent") but the actual company that owns the garage. We could call them "Laguun."

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by socaldmax

I think anyone intelligent enough to get appointed to the bench will be sharp enough to see right through that thin smoke screen.

Nope. This is France. US rules don't apply.

The dealers and lagoon are separate legal entities.

[geoff326]

Originally Posted by rabbi

Nope. This is France. US rules don't apply.

The dealers and lagoon are separate legal entities.

Agreed. Look no further than the FP case. The buyer was awarded millions, by a US judge, and I believe he is still waiting years later.

[smj]

Anything done on this boat while at the Lagoon facility, Lagoon should be responsible for. Anything done after should probably be the dealers headache. If Lagoon can't accept this responsibility then they suck and the bad press they get is justified. Being the Lagoon is balsa cored, I wonder if they oversized the deck fitting holes and filled with epoxy before they didn't caulk the fittings down.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[jeepbluetj]

Wouldn't it just be prudent for Lagoon to at least talk to the guy? Do _something_ to help him out? Sounds like bad business to kick the ball around so much that customers would get ticked off. There's a limited number of boat buyers out there and they do talk to each other.

As explained before, Catalina will always support a Catalina owner. Even me, with a 30+ year old boat, I can call up the factory and they'll look up whatever question I have. Catalina's are a budget brand too.

Seems to me that stuff like this is bad PR for Lagoon. OTOH, they still seem to be in business so I'm probably wrong.

[ka4wja]

Frank (the OP), Dan, Pelagic, et al,
The issue of "warranty" has been raised here (and quite rightly!), and I'd like to relate an absolutely true story that happen to me, on my boat....
Some will hopefully find this interesting, and serious contrast to what Frank is experiencing!!!

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

..it is a fact that yacht building involves installation of products that are marketed, manufactured and warranted by companies other than the builder. Often these products are not supplied and installed by the manufacturer. This is a necessary feature of the industry.

Originally Posted by Pelagic

That has no bearing on Warranty Responsibility. The Builder (Lagoon) should be the Primary Contractor and they "Sub-Contract" parts/materials/labor out to other companies as part of their management contract with the Buyer in delivering the yacht.
The measure of a good Builder is how well they control the performance of their subcontractors.

If Lagoon sidesteps this during the commissioning and warranty period, it is very telling about their poor commitment to quality.

In autumn 2007, I was in Gibraltar getting things ready to head back across the Atlantic....in our haste we ignored a few small ball bearings that were found on the deck and cabin top, thinking they were just some more debris from the marina and all the construction around (I had left my boat there for about 3 months)....

My boat was 8.5 years old then, and I was the 2nd owner....

And here is the 100% true story:

(And, here are some photos too...
Main Traveler )


I had just left Marina Bay, Gibraltar, and was less than 10 miles away, heading thru the Straits, and then across and down to Lanzaronte, Canary....and then across the Atlantic to St. Thomas, USVI...when this happened...

I had a main sheet block come apart ("explode" under load) when sailing downwind in the Straits of Gibraltar in Nov 2007, which set-off a chain of events that lead to traveler failure/damage…

The good news was that I rigged preventers port and starboard, but as the block exploded the main boom moved violently further outboard/leeward (not a gybe, that the preventer would've prevented!), and with this instant violent motion the traveler car was forced outboard and the traveler line snapped (8.5 year old, 3/8" Stay-Set)....this caused some damage to the traveler, but mostly to the traveler car...
(I knew I could get Sheppard's in Gib, to fabricate a new car, if needed....but, wasn't sure what the Canaries would have available....and since we were only a few miles into a 4000 mile passage, I turned around and headed back to my berth at Marina Bay!)

And, the good news is that since I had preventers rigged port and starboard, I used these as my main sheets and corralled the mainsail, and came about....

Got back to Marina Bay, called Catalina on my cell phone, explained what happened, and they told me they'd send out a new traveler BUT they didn't have one instock at the moment!! But, they knew that Garhauer (who made the traveler) would have one ready to go at their factory in California...

Well, after a pleasant phone conversation with Garhauer, they sent me an entire new traveler.
Fed Ex from California to Gibraltar, for FREE!!!
Over the past 8.5 years, they had redesigned it, and not only did they send me a new, bright, shinny traveler, car, blocks, etc. but also ALL the grade 10 hardware (with extra bolts, in case I dropped some), bottoming taps (3 of them, in case I broke one or two), and complete instructions!!

When I write "FREE", I mean FREE....
They (Garhauer) told me they warranty their stuff for 10 years, no exceptions!!
So, the block that came apart was their block, and the damaged traveler was their responsibility!
No fooling, when I tried to give 'em my credit card number, he said "what for...we built the stuff, we warranty it...that's all there is to it!"
You could've knocked me over with a feather!! An 8.5 year old, 2nd owner boat, that's had 1000's of offshore miles, and 3 Cat Three Hurricanes, etc...and they were replacing it under warranty!! (and later Catalina confirmed that if they had a traveler in stock, they'd have sent it out right away, also for free, under warranty....and they would've been reimbursed / resupplied by Garhauer...)


BTW, the new design is a beauty!!!! It is so SMOOTH, it moves like hot butter!!!! I can trim the main, moving the traveler car, without much effort at all…typically just by a tug on the traveler line, without using a winch. It's REALLY nice!!!

First off, a BIG THANK YOU to Bill and everyone at Garhauer!!!! Anyone that ever wonders why Catalina uses Garhauer (instead of Harken, etc.) for its OEM traveler, blocks, etc., well the answer is this is one incredible company!!! They stand behind their product completely and provide customers with something missing in our world today ~~~~ SERVICE!

A brief recap of what happened and how I got everything working fine again: Sailing in a nice Easterly breeze (downwind) thru the Straits of Gibraltar, we had a major failure. (All of this occurred within about 1 second, or so, so this is what I've been able to piece together.)
One of the Garhauer main sheet blocks "came apart", which in turn allowed the mainsail (and boom) to move very rapidly to leeward and, at the sudden stop, the traveler line(s) snapped, causing the traveler car to slam hard to leeward and breaking free from the traveler (destroying the car and damaging the traveler rail), and at the same time the boom swung further, hitting the aft lower shroud (no damage, except for a slight bend in the vang tube).

I did have preventers rigged, but only the leeward preventer was tight, in order to prevent an accidental gybe. Using the preventers (with the genoa winches) allowed me to bring the boom in and control the main. Being only 10 miles from Marina Bay Gibraltar, we turned around and headed back to our previous berth there, to assess damage and make repairs. (In hindsight, if I'd had a Dutchman Boom Brake, perhaps the damage to the traveler wouldn't have occurred but foresight isn't 20/20.....LOL.)

It was the next day that one of my brothers mentioned that he'd seem some ball bearings on the deck when cleaning up a few days earlier (probably from one of the Garhauer blocks?), but had assumed it was just construction debris or some garbage from other boats nearby.

Catalina didn't have any 470 travelers in stock (still a puzzlement to me!), but Garhauer treated me like I was their best / longtime customer (even though I'd only bought 2 small things from them directly. BTW my Garhauer outboard motor hoist is GREAT!)

The guys at Garhauer were still returning from the St. Pete Strictly Sail Boat Show, but they got to work right away. They were either making other travelers and gave me one right off the front of the line, OR I believe, they went right out and made one right away, just for me (and the Catalina 470).
When I called to confirm my shipping address in Gibraltar, I attempted to give Bill my credit card number (to charge everything to), and he said: "Why??, We guarantee these for 10 years, and this shouldn't have happened......so you owe us nothing..." I asked again to PAY for a new traveler, or at least for the shipping and he refused!!!!
To say I was amazed would be an understatement!!!!!
A $700 traveler and Overnight Int'l FedEx shipping, and they wouldn't let me pay????? Was I dreaming???? No, I was simply dealing with a GREAT company and a great guy!!!!
FedEx shipping worked okay, but took longer than specified due to the approaching weekend, and it would be the following Monday until I got my new traveler......and we had it installed in a few hours.

To finish the story, the block that came apart was in pieces and, along with my old traveler, is in the dumpster at Marina Bay, Gibraltar. But, I did a close inspection of ALL my blocks and found 2 additional Garhauer blocks that are missing ball bearings and are no longer safe to use. I replaced them in Gibraltar with Harkens (all I could get there), but brought them home with me to send to Garhauer...
And, I got 3 new Garhauer blocks in return!!

How's that for "warranty service"!!!
And, compare that to Frank's experience with Lagoon!





Sorry for the long story, but just thought some would like to see what you get from a great company / companies!!

fair winds..

John

[transmitterdan]

Originally Posted by socaldmax

I'm afraid you are mistaken.

Does Dodge make their own air conditioner compressor? Nope, York sells them all of their A/C compressors, the same ones they sell to Ford and Chevy.

Some components of any manufactured product are always made by other companies. But in the case of autos the components are warranted by the manufacturer and the dealer is responsible for handling warranty claims. You can't call Ford to get a new A/C compressor if yours fails. Neither can you call the A/C manufacturer. Because the automobile warranty contract governs how and who provides warranty service.

But that isn't how yacht manufacturing works in most cases. Most yacht manufacturers pass on the warranty of the OEM who made the component. Plus there are a lot of after market components added by dealers and owners. John's story about the broken traveler is an excellent case in point. The manufacturer of the traveler handled the warranty. That's how it often works with boats. You may not like how it works but that is how it is.

[transmitterdan]

Originally Posted by jeepbluetj

Wouldn't it just be prudent for Lagoon to at least talk to the guy? Do _something_ to help him out?

How do we know they have done nothing?

[ka4wja]

Dan, et al,
Just for clarification, Catalina was going to handle the warranty replacement, but they didn't have a traveler in stock for my boat!!
So, instead of them ordering it, and then sending it to me, they asked if I'd mind calling Garhauer directly!

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

John's story about the broken traveler is an excellent case in point. The manufacturer of the traveler handled the warranty. That's how it often works with boats. You may not like how it works but that is how it is.

Fact is Catalina did honor the warranty, they just didn't have the part in stock.....and since I was wishing to get out of Gib before the weather turned cool, etc., we both thought dealing with Garhauer directly would get me a new traveler the soonest!



Fair winds...

John

[dirkdig]

Lagoon (factory) do not care less about quality control and checking throughout the build that everything is done to a standard.
Why would they since it gets lumbered onto the poor dealer?
Basic things that some numnuts on the factory could not care less about is the frustrating thing.
That little thing that is a pain to fix that if it was done with care day 1 would never happen is what drives me mad with my Lagoon.
Other than that the boats are awesome.

Message to factory- do it once do it well.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[jeepbluetj]

Originally Posted by transmitterdan

How do we know they have done nothing?

We don't really. I'll agree to that. But I think Frank (OP) would have talked about what factory support he's had. As opposed to the lack thereof that he's posted.

Now, of course, I don't know Frank at all. He could be full of crap. But the fact that he's sent folks an actual survey lends some credence to his post.

Compare that to ka4wja's account of getting a brand new traveler from Garhauer (via Catalina) to a location on the other side of the globe from Garhauer's location. That's seriously fantastic service. For an over eight year old part. Remember, Catalina is a budget boat builder. Sure, there's a whole lot of Catalina design we can argue about but they do support their product. I know this personally on my 35 year old boat that was the bottom of the line when it was built - the factory STILL will answer questions about my boat when I call. And I can still order a part from Catalina Direct or Garhauer that will fit perfectly. I don't get the idea that I can do that for a Lagoon. And that's kinda sad when I think that I have a $15K boat opposed to a $900K boat.

Why shouldn't somebody that ponied up close to a mil expect similar service? 'Cause the manufacturer is French? If that's the case we should all buy South African, Turkish, Aussie, US, or anywhere but France built cats. Telling a new owner "tough sh!t" is really bad customer relations. Yup, maybe Frank had a crap agent/dealer. Maybe Frank is a total a$$hole. But even then, Lagoon should step up and fix the damn boat.

Practically, I agree with those that say "Just fix it." It seems that there's no way Frank is going to be able to get the problems fixed under warranty in a reasonable timeframe. That's wrong. But it is what it is. It does make me less likely to consider Lagoon as my long-term cruising vessel.