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Old 17-10-2015, 12:48   #76
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Re: Lagoon 52, think twice before purchasing it

Hi, this thread sure took off, I look at it 2 ways
1. the OP is buying $1M boat he should not have to worry about what HE needs to do to get the boat in good order, he is just excited about the new purchase (as I would be " just give me give me"). lagoon should do its own shake test / burn in.


but on the other hand
2. if you were buying a new house and moved in only to find paint, fitting , cracks problems, etc... it is normal to have either the builder fix or fix yourself.


what sucks about the story is that the OP wanted to come back across the Atlantic.


I guess that's what happens when you take delivery across the ocean, you save money on delivery but spend it other ways .


I know I didn't say anything.
sorry


Mike
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Old 17-10-2015, 21:40   #77
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Re: Lagoon 52, think twice before purchasing it

All I can say is that this post seems to confirm everything that I have ever heard or read about Lagoons build quality. Seems that they are a comfortable smooth water motor boat.
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Old 17-10-2015, 22:36   #78
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Re: Lagoon 52, think twice before purchasing it

There is a middle-ground between a custom-ordered new boat with all its warranty issues, and a used boat: The Dealer's demo boats. They're always for sale, fully wrung out and repaired by the dealers, and ready to go. They also come with a 10%-15% discount vs. MSRP. Whatever options you would have ordered other than cabin layout changes can simply be added by a local yard, generally for less than the factory option anyway.

The situation with warranty problems is dramatically exacerbated by two factors: (1) The factory relationship with the dealer and (2) the factory relationship with the OEMs.

When you have an issue, you technically bought the boat from the dealer, not from the factory. The factory leverages this to essentially never communicate with buyers, and then to pressure dealers.

The next problem is that most issues are actually not with the hull, but with "systems" that are separately warrentied by their respective manufacturers. Electronics, engines, gen sets, even the water systems are all OEM components that the factory isn't going to deal with, they're just going to pass you off to the OEM, who also doesn't want to talk to you.

The dealer is the real lynchpin, and it's their role to make this mess work for the buyer by acting as an agent for them with all the various manufacturers involved. Furthermore, since they do the commissioning, they're responsible for rigging issues, setup, configuration, and proper initial operation.

Neglectful dealerships are the real problem here, IMHO. I've bought two new boats, and in both cases good support from good dealers made all the difference. Others in my owners forum that had poor post-sale dealer support spent months of frustration getting issues ironed out with the same model of boat.

Check out your dealer and get references from them for three UNHAPPY buyers. If they tell you they've never had an unhappy buyer, tell them you won't be buying from a liar.
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Old 17-10-2015, 22:47   #79
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Re: Lagoon 52, think twice before purchasing it

i sympathise with OP, at one point myself in similar situation, forking out 1.5m for asset that will non-maintained perish in 10 years

but, as previous poster said, it is more post sales support that failed, possibly during high season in med when noone works and run naked on beaches and hide behind bushes doing stuff instead.

lawyers are useless. Do yourself favour, fork out $$ whatever you need, fix it, and move on with your life.
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Old 18-10-2015, 13:15   #80
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Re: Lagoon 52, think twice before purchasing it

So what can the OP do?

At first, he is not really a customer of Lagoon. He bought a boat from some dealer that was manufactured by Lagoon. He has tl sort this out with the dealer.
Sice there are gold and bad examples of Lagoon warranty work i am sure the problems are caused more by the dealer than Lagoon.

The dealer has to deal with all the warranty issue and needs to ask Lagoon for re-imbursement.
Take a relatively cheap issue and give them a deadline to fix it. Get a good consumer lawyer in the dealer's country and have him send a nice letter to the dealer. Tell them you will take them to court if they fail to deliver. They will take care of it.
Afterwards give them a list of issues and tell them you will take them to court for each and every individual item on the list and see what happens.


Most Dealers are no big entities, they are pretty small businesses that can't afford to loose lawsuits. Especially on things that they can get re-imbursed for by Lagoon if they just try hard enough.

Even better of course is to buy from a dealer who tries to deliver a good product and does indeed handle the warranty work.
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Old 18-10-2015, 13:32   #81
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Re: Lagoon 52, think twice before purchasing it

Bottom line is if Lagoon had done their job and passed on a quality product there wouldn't be this problem. How many boat builders hide behind their dealers? Is this common practice? It seems there would be more motivation for Lagoon to put out a good product if they were ultimately held responsible. So who's to blame here, Lagoon, the dealers or a combination of both?


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Old 18-10-2015, 13:33   #82
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Re: Lagoon 52, think twice before purchasing it

The Lagoon factory has set up the business model of purchasing from an approved dealer, its how they decided to do business. A lousy dealer can really hurt their business so its incumbent on them to ensure that they only keep dealers with a very high customer satisfaction record. Its rare that something big happens to the basic hull and that the big issue is the OEM products. Keep in mind that Lagoon decides what OEM products they are going to use on their boats so they do indeed have a responsibility to ensure that they were properly chosen, installed and working before the customer arrives on the scene. In my mind they have set it up this way and if it doesn't work for whatever reason they have a responsibility to ensure that a customer is treated properly. The more this kind of treatment goes on the better it is for their competitors. A happy customer tells a half dozen of his friends about his experience but an unhappy one tells a couple of hundred acquaintances which is why its easy to get small again when you forget who is putting bread on your table.
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Old 18-10-2015, 14:03   #83
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Re: Lagoon 52, think twice before purchasing it

Quote:
Originally Posted by smj View Post
Bottom line is if Lagoon had done their job and passed on a quality product there wouldn't be this problem. How many boat builders hide behind their dealers? Is this common practice? It seems there would be more motivation for Lagoon to put out a good product if they were ultimately held responsible. So who's to blame here, Lagoon, the dealers or a combination of both?


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Who is to blame?
At first Lagoon for setting up this distribution model which allows a bad/lazy dealer to ruin the customer's experience.
Second Lagoon for not providing a quality product, though i haven't really understood what is wrong with the boat.

But legally the OP can only go after the dealer. He has to fix things according to the warranty agreement. And he can probably get reimbursement from Lagoon but thats a separate thing. Thats the way the business model of lagoon works.
I think FP is just the same.
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Old 18-10-2015, 15:48   #84
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Re: Lagoon 52, think twice before purchasing it

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Originally Posted by rabbi View Post
Who is to blame?

At first Lagoon for setting up this distribution model which allows a bad/lazy dealer to ruin the customer's experience.

Second Lagoon for not providing a quality product, though i haven't really understood what is wrong with the boat.



But legally the OP can only go after the dealer. He has to fix things according to the warranty agreement. And he can probably get reimbursement from Lagoon but thats a separate thing. Thats the way the business model of lagoon works.

I think FP is just the same.

I agree, a lot of speculation on the problems considering we haven't heard back from the op. Could actually be some really trivial teething problems.


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Old 19-10-2015, 10:17   #85
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Re: Lagoon 52, think twice before purchasing it

Frank,
I've read this entire thread, and read your postings here, through, twice!
I hope you don't mind that a snipped out some things and have left the most pertinent points here to highlight/discuss..


1) First off, I feel for you! And see the frustrations in your words....
Sorry about what you are going thru!

And please see this really good, recent thread on Lagoon purchase issues...
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f48/frustration-getting-a-straight-answer-on-pricing-150645.html


2) Others have commented here about what should've happened, what they would've done, etc., and some have written their advice about what to do now...
As much as I am loath to write this, hiring an attorney might be your best course of action! BUT...
But, this all depends on exactly what is wrong with your boat! (as well as who is best to remedy these issues!)




And, this is my main reason for posting here....I, and others here, can offer you some good advice and assistance, only if we know what is actually happening / what's not working...
So...
3) Exactly what is wrong with your boat???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank A View Post
I am the owner of a new Lagoon 52 and which was the dream of my life, this dream is turning to a nightmare.
~~~~
I got the delivery of the boat in La Rochelle and there a lot of problems started with the options i had chosen, most of employees who were supposed to install these options were not working more than 2 hours a day or did not come when they were supposed to, the worst of all being the software company who works there ( POCHON ) they are just thieves and offers no service but charge the high price to instal things without taking care it works.
~~~~
From La rochelle i noticed a leak of oil on the transmission box on starboard, on the first maintenance, this leak was supposed to be fix by Lagoon employees. In fact not only hey did not fix anything but since a leak appeared on the port transmission box while the starboard started to swallow some sea water. Today, once again stuck sine a week in Mayorca to wait for a screen and the auto pilot that failed, i requested a survey from an acredited agent by Lloyds and what he discovered rally upsets me. After 3 pages of major defaults he noticed, he stopped his survey. I wassupposed to participate to ARC + 2015, but the boat is in such a state, that i will most probaly have to cancel this participation.
~~~~
and i wonder myself what i am going to become stuck on this boat where a lot of things are dangerousand the finish was called by the expert a " friday afternoon boat"…
I fully understand that while I've worked in hi-tech / electronics my whole life and do have a full suite of electronics, etc. on-board, I'm a bit old school when it comes to sailing, cruising, voyaging...
In that I hold to the adage that if you can maintain a few basic criteria, then you're "good to go" for a cruise / voyage!!
Those are:
a) Keep the sea water on the outside of the boat..(hull, keel, deck/hull joint and integrity, ports, hatches, thru-hull, etc., etc...)
b) Keep the mast/rigging attached and pointing up...(mast, rigging, chain plates, etc. etc...)
c) Keep the sails working, maintain control of the boat / able to steer, etc...(sails, running rigging, rudder, steering, etc...)
d) Provide adequate water, food, sleep, etc. for everyone on-board...(self-explanatory!)
e) Provide some basic way of knowing which way to sail towards land / your destination, and the ability to read the sky/barometer, watch your weather, etc...(Ritchie compass(es), a wrist watch, and some basic navigation and seamanship is all that is necessary....although I do recommend a basic understanding of celestial, as well as some indepth understanding of ocean weather for those heading across the Atlantic....and also a handheld GPS or two, is nice! )

If your boat, yourself, and your crew meets those criteria above, and/or can accomplish them yourselves in short order, then there is little that should keep you from sailing, cruising, voyaging, etc., and enjoying your boat!!
Everything else is nice to have, and really makes life on-board pleasant, but as long as the above criteria is met, there is nothing "dangerous" or that will cause any safety issues at all...

Bottom line:
You can sail across the Atlantic quite safely, if you meet those criteria above...and if you have some way of self-steering / autopilot, etc. it will be a fun, happy, and pleasurable voyage!!
(Now, I'm not a fan of the ARC....but if that's your choice, you should have no issues making it, if you meet/accomplish the above goals/criteria!)


Please see these threads for more info...(even if the title of the thread might seem to indicate something that is not on point, trust me the postings ARE directly on-point!!)



azores 2014 how safe is it?

Cruising Electronics Shoot-out

ARC Europe

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f48/frustration-getting-a-straight-answer-on-pricing-150645.html


4) You mention lots of problems with "options"? And, issues with "software"??
But, do not mention any details....so we are not able to help much...
Although, reading between the lines, I suspect these problems are with things like marine electronics, communications, entertainment systems, etc...as well as things like watermakers, refrigeration, energy systems, etc.???

While "energy systems" can be very crucial to everything else on-board, this is often overlooked, even by many professionals...
And, having enough water, food, and sleep, etc. can (on some larger and more complex boats) be directly impacted by refrigeration/freezing and watermaking problems...and these problems can be directly effected by "energy system" issues!!
SO...

So, if you're having critical issues / problems with some systems on-board (whatever they are), it is possible that this can be an "energy system" issue at the core...


5) But, from the words you write (problems with options and the software company), it seems more likely to be:
a) a "systems integration" issue, meaning that all the various things / stuff do not work well together, and/or have not been installed, programmed, commissioned to work well together...

b) an overall poor fit-out / commissioning of the whole boat, combined with a new owner (who possibly had unrealistic expectations of what Lagoon and its dealers are actually capable of providing....the flashy ads, notwithstanding!)

c) and some addition "teething" issues with mechanical and electronic devices...
An oil leak is not great, and yes it should be fixed by Lagoon, etc., and if you're getting sea water into the oil??? then this is a BIG problem!!!...
(but, I've seen/known some sailboats who've had oily bilges for dozens and dozens of years, and have never had any problem with it...)
(and "software" problems??? welcome to the 21st Century!! it happens!!)


Please remember what I've been saying for a couple decades now:
It is the proper installation/mounting, wiring/connections, programming/commissioning, of marine electronics that makes or breaks them / the system!!!
No matter how old, out-of-date, etc. something may be, if it was/is done properly, it will almost always work and outperform any of the newest, wiz-bang stuff that is poorly installed / commissioned!!



If these three things above seem to fit what "problems" you're having, then there is GOOD NEWS for you!!
All of this is easily solvable....and even if none of it is fixed to your satisfaction, it will not effect your boat's ability to safely sail across the Atlantic this fall!
BUT...

But, if there are serious structural issues with the boat, then you need to talk directly to an attorney, right away!!!



6) Further good news is that there is plenty of other pertinent info for you here at Cruiser's Forum...
Have a look here (again, don't be put-off by the thread title, the info will be on-point, and important to you!)
azores 2014 how safe is it?

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f2/arc-europe-154588.html#post1937340

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f13/cruising-electronics-shoot-out-154658.html#post1939080


http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f48/frustration-getting-a-straight-answer-on-pricing-150645.html



I do hope you find all the above to be helpful?

Fair winds!

John
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Old 19-10-2015, 10:28   #86
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Re: Lagoon 52, think twice before purchasing it

--- I tend to agree with Mark here!

--- And, also second Jim Cate's advice to always have a new boat surveyed!

--- But, Pelagic's advice/comments about sailing / cruising in circles, near the factory, until all the kinks are worked out???
Well, I politely disagree!! (actually, I hope he was being sarcastic!)


~~~


Just to expand a bit...on these points...
Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
One would think publicizing Lagoon's atrocious build quality and factory support problems would do so, but thread after thread on many forums for many years seems to prove this approach doesn't work.

The one consistent thing I have heard from new Lagoon owners is to forget ever getting a response from Lagoon again after the boat leaves the dock.
It seems that these days, there are few manufacturers that still hold to the old school of doing things (do it right the first time!)....
While everyone can point to Hinckley, Morris, and Swan...and know that they still "do it right, the first time", some may be surprised to see that Catalina Yachts is also still in that category!! (no sales pitch, just passing on some knowledge)

But, when these poor manufacturing / sales / support practices of most yacht manufacturers are combined with today's "new buyers", most of whom have lots more money than time (and many of whom have little practical big-boat sailing/voyaging experience), we get a recipe for conflict and problems!!
And, while this is all too often wrote about / spoken about after the fact, it is rare to find a potential buyer researching, investigating, learning, about their possible new > $1M boat, before they sign a contract....oh yeah, they'll go to the boat shows, watch Youtube videos of sailing/cruising, read cruising blogs, etc., but not actually delve into the guts of what they might be getting themselves into!


I have been a vocal proponent of joining "owner's groups", before you buy a boat!! Many times multiple owner's groups, to not just get a feel for one boat / one manufacturer, but to allow you to compare and contrast not just the boats, but the manufacturers, dealers, suppliers, etc... (I did this myself, and it proved to be the single largest source of real-world, first-hand, knowledge and experience, from those that have gone before!!)

Also, joining the SSCA, reading the SSCA Equipment Surveys (not just for the "equipment" info, but for the "boat" info too!), reading other on-line discussion forums such as Cruiser's Forum, Panbo, etc....will all add to the knowledge of the potential buyer...

But, all of this takes time....and as I wrote above, many/most of these new buyers of big(ger) boats, have more money than they have time....
And, that combined with the new 21st Century "mass production" attitude that "there's always another sucker with cash, so no worries!", and we get what we have here....a mess!



Sorry to ramble on....
Fair winds to all!

John
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Old 19-10-2015, 14:18   #87
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Re: Lagoon 52, think twice before purchasing it

Quote:
Originally Posted by ka4wja View Post
--- I tend to agree with Mark here!

--- And, also second Jim Cate's advice to always have a new boat surveyed!

--- But, Pelagic's advice/comments about sailing / cruising in circles, near the factory, until all the kinks are worked out???
Well, I politely disagree!! (actually, I hope he was being sarcastic!)
Hi John, I also advocate Mark and Jim's advice and especially your own to do the homework and refine the specifications before signing a strong contract that protects your rights.

However, from experience , I know that new boats will have teething problems and recommend working with Builder, by staying close by his location, if those problems are serious.

That presupposes that the Builder is interested and proactive in quickly solving the warranty problems after delivery.

The only 2 people that have a large vested interest in a new build is the Builder and the Client.... the rest, including the Dealers are basically employees.....So you are better finding a Builder who is prepared to work directly with you in that buyer's research.

If that is not the case with Lagoon, I would never consider buying from them.

I have been fortunate to oversee newbuilds with the very best Yards in the world....Feadship/Royal Huisman... and despite excellent craftsman and execution.... post delivery problems will arise.

Much easier to solve them if you can keep your inaugural trips close to the Yard.
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Old 19-10-2015, 14:43   #88
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Re: Lagoon 52, think twice before purchasing it

Quote:
Much easier to solve them if you can keep your inaugural trips close to the Yard
And factor in some return trips to that yard to solve problems while doing your travel planning... otherwise resentment rears its head, as in the OP's post.

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Old 19-10-2015, 14:52   #89
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Re: Lagoon 52, think twice before purchasing it

Wow, what bad luck.

Year before last I was on the delivery crew of a Lagoon 400, taking the boat from Les Sables to St Martin.

The boat was equipped with just about every bell and whistle you can think of. The fit and finish was perfect. We left within 4 days of the planned departure date, and the only thing that broke was a knob on the washing machine and that was due to user error.

The boat performed flawlessly including sustained 55kt + on the nose for eight hours in the Bay of Biscay.

Upon our arrival in SXM, the broker, Harel Yacht, met us with open arms. Their first words to the owner were, "Is everything OK with the boat? Are there any warranty issues that we need to address?" There were none.

Was it a fluke? Maybe, but it seemed to me, a disinterested observer, that the factory and Harel did an outstanding job.
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Old 20-10-2015, 09:52   #90
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Re: Lagoon 52, think twice before purchasing it

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
Hi John, I also advocate Mark and Jim's advice and especially your own to do the homework and refine the specifications before signing a strong contract that protects your rights.

I doubt there is much one can negotiate when dealing with larger production yards. One can either sign the standard contract or find another yard. Your only real protection is consumer law and the yards desire to keep a good reputation.
Visits to your own build are typically not possible, also i don't think any large manufacturer will allow visits by a surveyor during the process. A final acceptance survey may be ok, but even then a customer typically has only little money left in his hands.

Thats the price for getting a relatively cheap mass product.

But who thinks one can get any car manufacturer to do it any other way?
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