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Old 24-10-2015, 00:02   #196
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Re: Lagoon 52, think twice before purchasing it

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Originally Posted by jeepbluetj View Post
Practically, I agree with those that say "Just fix it." It seems that there's no way Frank is going to be able to get the problems fixed under warranty in a reasonable timeframe. That's wrong. But it is what it is. It does make me less likely to consider Lagoon as my long-term cruising vessel.
+1, except for the last sentence. Older lagoons are great. Fresh from the factory maybe not so much sometimes

Its probably best to buy second hand from a french owner. From my experience the french treat their fellows differently than the rest of the world so a french boat might have more teething and quality issue fixed.
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Old 24-10-2015, 07:02   #197
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Re: Lagoon 52, think twice before purchasing it

I have owned boats since 1980. I will say that marine repairs are the worse thing to go through. The people that run the repair shops and their workers are just are not very reliable nor very good at fixing things.

A good opportunity for any person with some skills would be to run a reliable clean well organized marina.

Ever look around at how shoddy marina's are run? I am talking about even in the US they are shoddy. I can not imagine how they are in other countries. I am guessing not better but worse.

Hang in there, it is a very frustrating thing to go thru. But remember we have all dealt with crappy service.



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Old 24-10-2015, 07:28   #198
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Re: Lagoon 52, think twice before purchasing it

Failed to mention...my boats were simple fresh water in-land lake boats...easy to fix engines, steering ect. Still had broken promises and fix dates. One took 2 months longer than the estimate. Wrong part ordered, right part orders but wrong parts delivered, parts ordered but only partial parts delivered, the person assigned to the fix is on vacation, was in an accident etc etc.

A 52' Lagoon way way more complex. You probably heard the same fix delays that I have heard. Lucky for me I did get free storage...ugh.

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Old 25-10-2015, 07:06   #199
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Re: Lagoon 52, think twice before purchasing it

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The agent did not build the boat or get paid $1M for a boat. He got a commission to sell a $1M boat built by Lagoon and the vast majority of the money went to Lagoon.

I would do what any judge would do: follow the money, and nail them to the wall.

If you bought a Chevy car and it needed immediate warranty repairs, would you go back to the salesman or to the Service Dept? The Service Dept. Sure, you could go back to try to talk to the salesman, but he's just going to open the door and shove you into...

the Service Dept. Where they actually fix things. Salesmen just sell you a dream.

I did my homework on the agent, went to the factory in France BEFORE I chose Lagoon / Simpson Marine.

The agent is LAGOON for all intensive purposes, chase the agent!!!?


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Old 25-10-2015, 09:02   #200
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Re: Lagoon 52, think twice before purchasing it

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I did my homework on the agent, went to the factory in France BEFORE I chose Lagoon / Simpson Marine.

The agent is LAGOON for all intensive purposes, chase the agent!!!?


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That must be a Lagoon thing, for all intents and purposes, in case you were wondering how that saying really goes. Other brands stand behind their work and don't hide behind a broker.

I'm also in my homework stage, and Lagoon isn't even on the list. I don't care about style or design as much as other people, my main focus is suitability for purpose, but I have to admit that the Lagoon profile is too boxy and the weight and sail plan would indicate it wouldn't sail as well as others, which is also a criteria. Why would I buy a boat that's too slow, heavy, unattractive (to me) and comes with ZERO customer service?

Not in a million years.
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Old 28-10-2015, 23:23   #201
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Re: Lagoon 52, think twice before purchasing it

I hope it's ok to post this here. I just found this and think that people reading this post would be interested in it.

Our Sailboat | Sail Wildling

Not directly about Lagoon but certainly good advice to someone thinking of purchasing a Lagoon 52. A lot of good points and information. If I could afford a boat of these prices I know which one I would take, there is absolutely no comparision.
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Old 29-10-2015, 01:30   #202
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Re: Lagoon 52, think twice before purchasing it

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That must be a Lagoon thing, for all intents and purposes, in case you were wondering how that saying really goes. Other brands stand behind their work and don't hide behind a broker.

I'm also in my homework stage, and Lagoon isn't even on the list. I don't care about style or design as much as other people, my main focus is suitability for purpose, but I have to admit that the Lagoon profile is too boxy and the weight and sail plan would indicate it wouldn't sail as well as others, which is also a criteria. Why would I buy a boat that's too slow, heavy, unattractive (to me) and comes with ZERO customer service?

Not in a million years.
I fully agree that you should seek a boat suitable to your purpose. BUT, different people have different purposes, ergo - different boats suits them.
Second point - Lagoon doesn't come with ZERO service.
Many people, me included, have totally different experience. An example (or even few examples) are not statistics. They are only examples, nothing more. You may learn from them of course, but there is no point in creating false generalities/pre-conceptions if you do not research the full picture.
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Old 29-10-2015, 13:57   #203
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Re: Lagoon 52, think twice before purchasing it

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I fully agree that you should seek a boat suitable to your purpose. BUT, different people have different purposes, ergo - different boats suits them.
Second point - Lagoon doesn't come with ZERO service.
Many people, me included, have totally different experience. An example (or even few examples) are not statistics. They are only examples, nothing more. You may learn from them of course, but there is no point in creating false generalities/pre-conceptions if you do not research the full picture.
All very true, one must keep an open mind to learn.

However, there are several brands who have a reputation for excellent customer service after the sale, regardless of who you bought it from. While the OP's experience might not be the norm, he's also not alone in his experience. At some point, enough disgruntled customers end up being the majority rather than the minority.

I'm only looking to buy 1 cat, as a liveaboard cruiser, capable of reasonably fast, comfortable sailing, reliable, with good customer service. I'm not knocking anyone else's choice of boat, but from what I've been reading and gathering over the last 1-2 yrs, there are many boats that just rank much higher than Lagoon in all of the categories that are important to me.
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Old 02-11-2015, 19:39   #204
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Re: Lagoon 52, think twice before purchasing it

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I'm afraid you are mistaken.

Does Dodge make their own air conditioner compressor? Nope, York sells them all of their A/C compressors, the same ones they sell to Ford and Chevy.

Guess who makes all of the common rail diesel fuel systems in the world? Bosch.

Guess who makes steering boxes? Saginaw.

Guess who makes all of the Weatherpak connectors?

NONE of the auto mfrs. make their own subsystems, they buy their fuel systems (pumps, lines, filter, injectors, sensors), sound systems, instruments, sensors, brake pads, wheels, tires, A/C components, ECMs, glass, brakes, bearings, connectors, etc from subcontractors.

If your injectors go out on your Chevy diesel, Bosch doesn't service your truck, GM does and deals with Bosch on a contractor to supplier level. Everything in your car is warrantied by the name plate on the car, even though it's a collection of subsystems all purchased from subs.

So it should be exactly the same with Lagoon. Yes, those are systems built by someone else, but they were purchased by Lagoon and resold to the buyer as a complete yacht. Lagoon is the name on the hull, Lagoon should stand behind their product.

If not, there are plenty of discerning people out there who will simply buy from yacht builders who value their reputations and will respond to their customer's needs. We need to vote with our wallets. I gave myself 5 yrs to research catamarans before I decide to buy and live aboard one. I'm reading every day (more importantly on owner's groups), and that's how much research I'll do before I spend my money.
Automotive manufacturers are more correctly system integrators. Most manufacture nothing.

They have higher volumes, conduct far more testing and proving and have good statistical data available.

Most yacht manufacturers are builders and not system integrators. They have small volumes, are rarely able to conduct any non destructive or destructive testing and have no statistical end user data.

Therefore the customer inadvertently accepts much more risk than someone who buys a car. Yacht builders get to transfer a great deal of risk to the buyer.

Buying a used boat is how many buyers mitigate the risk associated with testing and proving. By selling through dealers yacht builders attain a legal seperation between themselves and the end user.

Our approach to this issue was to buy a proven design, well equipped and with systems proven.

We bought a Liberty 458, fully equipped for cruising that had been owned for 22 years by an aircraft mechanic who was almost as OCD as me.

It's still a multi year process to understand the vessel and all its systems. I cant think of the time it wouldntake to shakedown a new $1M cat...

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Old 03-11-2015, 08:59   #205
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Re: Lagoon 52, think twice before purchasing it

It seems that many boat owners accept the sad fact, that buying a new boat may finish with an ordeal. It is strange that buying a used boat may become a better experience - less expectations, it’s a buyers’ market till you buy your boat, more freedom of choice in the manner you fix and upgrade it. I do not believe that the work of a boat builder is more complex than a contractor which is building a house or a software company developing a software module. In most cases it is simpler, as boats are a repetitive product with some limited customization to a higher or lower degree.
Since I am in the market for a boat I intend to use for a decade, I have allocated a six months period for the purchase process. My main objective is to have an enjoyable experience both form the building process and owning the boat. Following my personal experience in this market, I have set my process guidelines as I would have done for every project:
1. I want an evolutionary and not revolutionary boat. I will not be the 1st nor the 5th to buy a certain model. KISS – Keep it Simple, Stupid. I seek a builder with proven capabilities to incrementally improve while applying regression testing to past mistakes. I should be able to rely on the builder experience.
2. No Dealer in the middle - some of them are great some of them less. They make a leaving out of their dealerships, so their interests are mixed and not necessarily aligned with mine. They are just another layer between the client and source. If a factory choose to isolate itself from its clients, it is not a factory I would buy from. It may be that the big ones will not deal with me since I am not as big as their charter clients, but then, I do not want to deal with them. None of the quality small and midsize builders refused direct connection and usually these are the higher quality boats. More than that, in my business the clients are the greatest assets. It is not the buildings, not the know-how, not the products but the clients which generate the value. There is no “one time client”. Even if a client buys one boat during his lifetime, he is still an opinion influencer to a certain degree. With the communication speed and accessibility of current times –to a high degree.
3. I sailed / will sail each and every candidate. I communicate with current owners just to feel their mood and hear about their process. Owners and more so forum writers (as myself) should be taken with a grain of salt. It looks like boat owners would scold the dear ones before they will state negative facts about their boats.
4. I want to see the factory, its organization, cleanliness, maintenance, the processes, the craftsmen and managers. Building a boat is not only about the performance or the upholstery colors. There are inherent risks including quality control, business stability and continuity, client attitude, design process, integration approach and others which may turn the nice brochure boat into a nightmare. I want to see positive approach as only with such mutual approach such project will succeed.
5. I want my agreement directly with the factory. I want it to be fair (to both sides) professionally checked and mutually agreed. I want to protect my investment along the building process or if bad scenarios happens.
6. Surveyor – this is a question. How do you choose the right multi-stack surveyor that will deal with the designs, multiple components, disciplines and usability of a boat. As hard as finding the right attitude builder so definitely the main focus should be finding the right builder.
7. Sea trials, in my youth I had the privilege of going into and out shipyards dozens of times. Different ships, different objectives but always the same story. The complexity of real life builds, the sea and presence of third party integrated systems results in different outcome than the desired results. Clear testing plan and acceptance criteria are the only way to reduce uncertainty or sad surprises. I will keep my boat at least one season in proximity to the builder. It will give both of us a chance to test and fix while maintaining the personal relations and minimizing costs.
8. My personal selection criteria is a weighted calculation of cost, quality, design, performance, warranty length and coverage, builder organization, business risk all lead to a cost/value mark. For me it is a way to neutralize emotions.
For now it was an enjoyable process. I do hope that I will end with an overall enjoyable experience.
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Old 03-11-2015, 11:47   #206
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Re: Lagoon 52, think twice before purchasing it

Welcome to CF UDYY.

Very good Owner's critique for Builder selection..

At the end of the day, you need to find a Builder whose key management will support workers who can execute to a high quality level.

However the key business components of realizing a successful new build of a custom or semi-custom yacht lies in the development of a very detailed book of Build Specifications.

These should be complemented by an equally detailed Build Contract, that supports each section of your Specifications.

" Details In equals Detail Out"!
....., so try and do your homework on Maker's List and features before contract signing, rather than vague "intent laden" passages in your Specifications and Contract.

If you like, send me a PM with your email and I will copy you my INDEX of both Build Specs and Build Contract to outline the key components of successfully working with your chosen Builder.

While i have used them for custom Superyacht new builds, the Index reflects the same Owner's concerns we all have.

Good luck with your search.
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Old 03-11-2015, 13:34   #207
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Re: Lagoon 52, think twice before purchasing it

udyy,
Welcome to Cruiser's Forum...

To be honest, I read your posting out loud to my 94.5 yr old mother who (as well as my late father) is a life-long offshore sailor, cruiser, voyager....(and my 64 yr. old sister was listening as well) during lunch today, and we were all a bit unsure if you were serious about your approach...



1) Now, I'm going to assume you were serious and I'd like to offer some helpful advice to you...from my own personal experiences, over my own past 45 - 50 years of offshore sailing, boat ownership and maintenance...

The only manufacturers that I have personal experience with, that will meet all of your criteria are Hinckley and Catalina....(I grew up sailing on my parent's Hinckley, and from my more recent contact with Hinckley, I can assure you that they will design and build your yacht as you require....)



If you want a custom or semi-custom Hinckley, this is going to cost many $$$$$$$....(think low 7-figures....but, I assume you know that already!)
USA Phone 207-244-5531 (ask for Phil Bennett)





Now, if you can bring yourself down a bit into the reality that the rest of us live in, and have a budget more like most of us....well then the universe opens up a bit...and you will find Catalina Yachts to be welcoming place...

Quite frankly, you will get a big eye-opening experience if you call Catalina Yachts, speak to Gerry Douglas (the chief designer and VP of the company), and arrange a tour of their factory....and discuss your desires / criteria...
USA Phone: 727-544-6681







2) Now, there are other yacht manufacturers that might also fit your criteria, that I do NOT have personal experience with....such as Nautor/Swan and Morris....as well as possibly Little Harbor or Alden....and, of course some of the small niche / custom / one-off shipyards (such as some in S. Africa, US, Europe)...

But again, this is all going to cost you big $$$$$$$....




So....again welcome aboard....and good luck in your search!

Fair winds..

John
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Old 03-11-2015, 14:03   #208
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Re: Lagoon 52, think twice before purchasing it

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Frank,

Take a step back, and a deep breath. What you have been experiencing is not uncommon with brand new boats. Stuff does not work right. Service providers do not come when they say they will or complete jobs when they said they will. This --while entirely frustrating-- is the way of the world when it comes to yachts. The search for reliable providers is forever ongoing. It is not specific to Lagoons. Everybody has difficulties with providers, even if they're "nice" people, they're still not prompt. This is the world you bought into with your Lagoon. Now you guys have to figure out how to cope with it. Ann
This is really good advice. You are understandably terribly frustrated, but in that emotional state, things look a lot worse than they really are.

First of all, as Ann says, all new boats have problems. They are more like buildings, than cars. You could pick up a new car from a dealer and take it straight out on the road to drive cross country, but never with a new boat!! Any more than you would start moving people into a new office building right after construction is finished. With a boat, just like a new office building, or a newly-built shopping center, you need a certain period of time for "punchlist" or "snagging" or "shaking down". It's sensible to actually hire a good surveyor to help you with this, and budget some time to get it right. And don't accept the boat and sail off with it until at least the main things have been set right, and there is an agreed plan on the things which can't be done in that time. If you send the surveyor ahead, and you trust the person, you don't even necessarily need to be there yourself. Many buyers of new boats have the surveyor regularly visit the build as it's going on. Costs some money, but for a million dollar boat?

I know that's cold comfort for you now. If I were you, I would choose one good dealer with a good service department, or sail back to La Rochelle, hire a surveyor, and leave the boat there until the problems are eliminated. Reschedule your cruising.

I'm not commenting on whether the company itself is good or bad; I don't know. If you say they're bad I'll take your word for it. But whether the maker is good or bad, the procedure is the same. When the maker offers to deliver the boat to you, it needs to be thoroughly, and preferably professionally, inspected, and time needs to be allowed to negotiate and execute the corrections which need to be made.
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Old 03-11-2015, 14:11   #209
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Re: Lagoon 52, think twice before purchasing it

Thanks John and Pelagic for your feedback.
Although I have sailed 36 years on monhulls, power and sails, I will be buying a Catamaran. This was already decided by my second half and I was converted 4 months ago. I am not going to design a boat but rather find a builder i trust his well tested design and his ability to execute this design. I will twaek some systems but only if blessed by the builder. I am already 4 months (out of 6 in my plan) and 10 boats tested so far. So 3 boats are on my short list if nothing pops up. $$$ is not the issue as i am not discussing a super yacht but 45-50' catamaran. Its more about cost / value according to my criteria and project risk.

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Old 03-11-2015, 14:13   #210
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Re: Lagoon 52, think twice before purchasing it

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. . . 2) Now, there are other yacht manufacturers that might also fit your criteria, that I do NOT have personal experience with....such as Nautor/Swan and Morris....as well as possibly Little Harbor or Alden....and, of course some of the small niche / custom / one-off shipyards (such as some in S. Africa, US, Europe)...

I really don't think that the delivery experience is much different with high end boats.

My surveyor, who did both the Oyster I had a contract on but did not buy, and the Moody which I did buy, and with whom I spent a lot of time (we had to travel a couple of times to Ipswich to visit the Oyster yard), had an active practice surveying new high end yachts for buyers during the build process -- Oysters, Swans, etc. You should hear some of the stories! Boat builders, even high end ones, are like building contractors -- they need to be watched carefully and kept on a short leash!! I spent weeks at the Oyster yard and saw buyers accepting their new boats -- the process went on for weeks in many cases. No one was frustrated, but there were many problems and the work to solve them was very involved. This is just normal.

I am pretty sure that the OP's problem is more a matter of process, than of the maker per se.

The main difference he would experience with Oyster, I think, is that Oyster would at least recommend that he appoint a professional to observe the build. Unlike Lagoon, who apparently allowed the OP to assume that the process is like buying a car.
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