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Old 23-10-2015, 07:30   #166
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Re: Lagoon 52, think twice before purchasing it

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Originally Posted by rabbi View Post
@meirriba
Understood. But that only applies to the materials used during the final rigging and commissioning?

I expect the instruments as well as gas plumbing, deck fittings, etc are all done by Lagoon or their sub contractors.
Almost correct. But to be exact, the electronics, which may be ordered from Lagoon or ordered to be from a different equipment manufacturer is installed by a company chosen by the agent.

The more internal stuff like gas and plumbing, engines, etc. Is done as you wrote by the company and its subs.
However as I wrote in different post - the agent is the single channel for everything that was written on the purchase order placed with him. You are not supposed to investigate and find which contractor did what part of the job.
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Old 23-10-2015, 08:03   #167
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Re: Lagoon 52, think twice before purchasing it

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Originally Posted by meirriba View Post
Although part of the work is done by the Lagoon factory and part by several commissioning bodies there is always one and single address for complaints: the agent who sold the boat. He represents the company to the buyer and is responsible for the entities ha has chosen to make the final commissioning and to install the various extras and options.
No need to find your way on the fatkness among the several bodies who worked on the boat prior to delivery.
It is also the agents job to make the hand over to the client, go over the systems and help the client to see how everything works and if problems are found - to solve them. Same single point of contact throughout the warranty period.
I repeat - the agent is the single channel.
OK I believe you, great system if you have 1st class agents and they have complete freedom to do whatever it takes to make good on poor factory work and installs BUT it sort of doesn't look like this nice fellow was properly looked after and from what he is saying it is still not happening to his satisfaction. So who in the end really cares who is responsible and who does the work as long as there is someone and they attend to it in a timely and professional manner. Having said that and from looking at what Lagoon's quality standards in this case are plus the way this customer was looked it doesn't exactly say good things about Beneteau/Lagoon.
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Old 23-10-2015, 08:53   #168
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Re: Lagoon 52, think twice before purchasing it

Robert
I totally agree. There is always the possibility that Lagoon did a bad job (e.g my boat was found to be leaking on maiden launch) and it is better to have a good agent who can stand up to Lagoon and claim repairs.
If you have an agent who is not up to his job you are in a deep s**t.
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Old 23-10-2015, 09:09   #169
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Re: Lagoon 52, think twice before purchasing it

Seems to me, Buyers of Lagoons are missing one key basic economic requirement in this Dealer Agreement.

You are not contracting with a company with known Assets, who can insure fulfillment of the Contracted and Warranted purchase by providing known collateral.

A bad dealer can file bankruptcy/disappear and reorganize to sell again.....while Lagoon points fingers at the Dealer over warranty issues.
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Old 23-10-2015, 09:16   #170
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Re: Lagoon 52, think twice before purchasing it

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That is all bullshit excuses.

Take some responsibility for your product!!
I do not judge people by the mistakes they make. I judge people by how they handle the mistakes and this is a great example of what not to do!

Show some pride in your product and quit blaming your mistakes on everyone else man up to it and make it right!
I was talking about who is considered responsible for certain things. I am not defending Lagoon. I have only heard one side of a story. Therefore, I cannot draw any conclusions one way or the other.

But it is a fact that yacht building involves installation of products that are marketed, manufactured and warranted by companies other than the builder. Often these products are not supplied and installed by the manufacturer. This is a necessary feature of the industry. To be otherwise would vastly increase costs and reduce the number of builders. There are hundreds of yacht companies and only a handful of automobile companies. If you want to apply automobile standards to yachts you will have to live with only a handful of companies making yachts. Nobody thinks that is a good idea.

Once we know who is responsible for which errors then we can talk about accountability. But in this story we don't know all of those answers. I would like to see the surveyor's report too. I would also like to know exactly who paid for the electronics and their installation. If it was Lagoon then they should be accountable for any incorrect installation. If the Navico electronics failed due to a warranty covered claim then Navico is accountable. If the broker paid some know-nothing to install the equipment then the broker is accountable. If the owner bought the equipment and paid a know-nothing to install the equipment then...well I think you can see that we don't know enough information to be flying off the handle at Lagoon on every issue.

I agree with you on restrictions on surveys. If a manufacturer tells you they will limit the time on a purchase survey for a $1M yacht to a few minutes (say 90) then that tells you all you need to know. Run don't walk to another builder. A proper survey and sea trial takes more than a day on a yacht this size. It is not an automobile which was my point at the outset.
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Old 23-10-2015, 09:30   #171
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Re: Lagoon 52, think twice before purchasing it

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it is a fact that yacht building involves installation of products that are marketed, manufactured and warranted by companies other than the builder. Often these products are not supplied and installed by the manufacturer.
.
That has no bearing on Warranty Responsibility. The Builder (Lagoon) should be the Primary Contractor and they "Sub-Contract" parts/materials/labor out to other companies as part of their management contract with the Buyer in delivering the yacht.
The measure of a good Builder is how well they control the performance of their subcontractors.

If Lagoon sidesteps this during the commissioning and warranty period, it is very telling about their poor commitment to quality.
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Old 23-10-2015, 09:47   #172
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Re: Lagoon 52, think twice before purchasing it

I am not sure why you decided to go for an ocean crossing on a new boat. Why not get a boat and break her in, THEN sign up for whatever rally you care.

I have seen the scenario too many times to see anything odd in it. You cannot apply your elsewhere mind to Mediterranean style of life ('work', in this case). It took me a moment to see this but now that I do it actually helps me make my living.

Swallow it. Get the boat ready, then go sailing. Do NOT rely on brokers and dealers. They made their work and took their money now it is your boat and your problem, oooppps, challenge.

You can hire a gun to sort it all out for you. Yes it will cost. Look for an inexpensive marina to winter over and keep your man working thru it. Spring comes you will have your boat ready to go. There are plenty of things to sort out on any 52'er. Who never did, will not know. I am telling you this from onboard of a 70'er - PLENTY OF SYSTEMS and some of them are kinky, new boat (small problem - parts available) or old (big problem - parts to be machined, ordered from odd lots or else stolen).

It all takes time. Also getting a 'ready to go' boat to the ready to go condition takes time. Even if at a point you elected to believe a dealer their boat is different.

Regards,
b.
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Old 23-10-2015, 10:50   #173
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Re: Lagoon 52, think twice before purchasing it

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That has no bearing on Warranty Responsibility. The Builder (Lagoon) should be the Primary Contractor and they "Sub-Contract" parts/materials/labor out to other companies as part of their management contract with the Buyer in delivering the yacht.

If we know that is how the deal is structured and the contract obligates the builder to act as an agent for the these other companies then I agree. But that is a big assumption. Many builders ship yachts without sails, electronics, running rigging, ground tackle and such. These items are added by the broker or owner to save cost. Unless we have all the facts its all just speculation.
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Old 23-10-2015, 11:12   #174
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Re: Lagoon 52, think twice before purchasing it

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If we know that is how the deal is structured and the contract obligates the builder to act as an agent for the these other companies then I agree. But that is a big assumption. Many builders ship yachts without sails, electronics, running rigging, ground tackle and such. These items are added by the broker or owner to save cost. Unless we have all the facts its all just speculation.
Yeah, but in this particular case can one in fact order a Lagoon without such basics?
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Old 23-10-2015, 11:18   #175
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Re: Lagoon 52, think twice before purchasing it

“How the deal was structured” “it’s the agents fault” “Contact the dealer”

Each of the following is a defense mechanism employed by the manufacture to protect their image. ... They shift their own responsibility onto someone else. The blame game.

A company that stands behind a product would fix it and go after the vendors themselves.
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Old 23-10-2015, 11:58   #176
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Re: Lagoon 52, think twice before purchasing it

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Yeah, but in this particular case can one in fact order a Lagoon without such basics?
No one can't.
One can skip things like the electronics, antifouling, mooring lines, anchor & chain.
Of course one can choose not to have factory installations for certain options, like a gennaker, genset, solar, heating, etc and do it after the boat has left the factory (which it does only after it has been paid in full).
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Old 23-10-2015, 12:02   #177
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Re: Lagoon 52, think twice before purchasing it

I don't get it. Why would anyone here be critiquing Frank? He laid out close to 1M $ for a new boat, with warranty, to go sailing. Now he has multiple issues with the boat, some serious, all irritating, & some of you are calling HIM out for it! Get real, & leave him to his very real & expensive problems, none of which sound to be of his making.


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Old 23-10-2015, 12:09   #178
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Re: Lagoon 52, think twice before purchasing it

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Originally Posted by Geekatlrg View Post
“How the deal was structured” “it’s the agents fault” “Contact the dealer”

Each of the following is a defense mechanism employed by the manufacture to protect their image. ... They shift their own responsibility onto someone else. The blame game.

A company that stands behind a product would fix it and go after the vendors themselves.
I disagree. It can save on multiple markups if the builder does not install equipment or systems that can be done locally by the owner or broker. Also, taxes may affect decisions by the owner about when and where equipment is installed. In a $1M deal all of that can add up to a lot of $$ so when negotiating a contract for a new yacht the details are important.

Similarly, warranty of equipment manufactured by other companies costs money. If the builder has to add that cost onto the deal then it increases the total cost. And if warranty was also included in the price paid to the manufacturer that results in doubling up on warranty cost. Most purchasers of yachts don't like to pay for the same thing twice.

In this case we don't have all the details of the deal. So just assuming that Lagoon is at fault for everything isn't right IMO. For many things the OP has mentioned (joinery, corroded hardware, etc.) it may be logical to blame Lagoon. But for many of the serious issues (MFD fried, water in sail drive) it is less than clear who is at fault and who is responsible to fix.

Speculation mode on:

In my experience these types of situations don't often arise from something as simple as an uncaring manufacturer. They usually arise due to decisions made long before the keels were laid. This case may be completely different and Lagoon is just a bunch of uncaring, money grubbing goons as seems to be the sentiment of a few on this thread. Without more information I think it's premature to assume the worst.
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Old 23-10-2015, 12:31   #179
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Re: Lagoon 52, think twice before purchasing it

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Originally Posted by meirriba View Post
Almost correct. But to be exact, the electronics, which may be ordered from Lagoon or ordered to be from a different equipment manufacturer is installed by a company chosen by the agent.

The more internal stuff like gas and plumbing, engines, etc. Is done as you wrote by the company and its subs.
However as I wrote in different post - the agent is the single channel for everything that was written on the purchase order placed with him. You are not supposed to investigate and find which contractor did what part of the job.
If one chooses the standard electronics i am quite sure they will use a standard subcontractor. I don't see why lagoon would allow the dealer to choose from a list of approved installers in that case. this is a standard option and comes for a price defined by Lagoon.

Since lagoon controls both their dealership network as well as all subcontractors allowed to work on a boat while it is still on lagoon premises they are ultimately responsible for the quality of the end product and all factory installed options.

I understand that Frank needs to go through his distributor as the single point of contact but at the end lagoon is responsible for what they deliver. Leaving the legal position aside its still a shame that Lagoon does not actively try to resolve at least those issues that are clearly the factories fault (no new boat should have a handfull of leaks).


But i must also say that i would have dealt differently with many of these issues. If deck fittings leak i fix it instead of watching the boats condition detoriate while waiting for the dealer or Lagoon.
If i have milky SD oil i change it immediately and keep monitoring and changing it until i can haul out. If someone else is to blame so be it but first i try to keep the damage as small as possible.
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Old 23-10-2015, 13:44   #180
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Re: Lagoon 52, think twice before purchasing it

Good point. Most warranty contracts require the purchaser take reasonable and necessary steps to prevent further damage once a problem is identified. Similar conditions appear in many insurance policies. Basically, a warranty contract does not relieve the purchaser to act as if they have no responsibility whatsoever.

A warranty is somewhat similar to an insurance policy except it does not cover errors by the purchaser or acts of God. A warranty is insurance against damage caused by the seller in some way. And this warranty comes at a price but often buried in the sales price. In this case we don't know who is the seller. Was it Lagoon or some middle company?
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