Lagoon 450 vs Helia 44

[Freedom fighter]

Ive read previous posts on this subject but most are a few years old and would like some fresh perspectives.
We are looking to sell up and buy a Lagoon 450 or Helia 44 early 2017 in the Med or Caribbean to live on for an extended time with our two kids 8 & 12yr.
We will be water sailing">blue water sailing. I have a coupe of questions and hope to hear from people with first hand experience. We had our hearts set on the Lagoon 450 but are considering a Helia 44

1. Fly bridge, Do PASAGE MAKERS feel overly isolated, unsafe and exposed to the weather on a fly bridge? Is the higher boom a major problem. How's the vision for docking?
I have talked to someone that sailed across oceans singlehanded and he loved it. It seems those with them love them and those without wouldn't have one.

2. Is 500L of fuel enough compared to1000L

3. Is there enough storage on the Helia? The Lagoon seem to have more

4. Does the Helia sail that much better and does the Lagoon sail poorly with an uncomfortable motion?

5. The Lagoon 450 at 15t compared to 10t for the Helia, that's a lot so is the Lagoon that much bigger, more solidly built?

6. Is there much advantage for the extra weight compared to the cons of speed.

7. Build quality, quality of rigging, mast etc

Thanks for your patience and I'm sure many of you know my dilema

[GordMay]

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, Freedom fighter.

[warren460]

I think that the Lagoon is bigger in most dimensions. I believe that both are regularly said and delivered across the oceans without much of an issue.

In addition, a better comparison might be made between the helia and the lagoon 450 sports model without the fly bridge.

[yeloya]

Originally Posted by Freedom fighter

Ive read previous posts on this subject but most are a few years old and would like some fresh perspectives.
We are looking to sell up and buy a Lagoon 450 or Helia 44 early 2017 in the Med or Caribbean to live on for an extended time with our two kids 8 & 12yr.
We will be blue water sailing. I have a coupe of questions and hope to hear from people with first hand experience. We had our hearts set on the Lagoon 450 but are considering a Helia 44

1. Fly bridge, Do PASAGE MAKERS feel overly isolated, unsafe and exposed to the weather on a fly bridge? Is the higher boom a major problem. How's the vision for docking?
I have talked to someone that sailed across oceans singlehanded and he loved it. It seems those with them love them and those without wouldn't have one.
2. Is 500L of fuel enough compared to1000L
3. Is there enough storage on the Helia? The Lagoon seem to have more

4. Does the Helia sail that much better and does the Lagoon sail poorly with an uncomfortable motion?
5. The Lagoon 450 at 15t compared to 10t for the Helia, that's a lot so is the Lagoon that much bigger, more solidly built?
6. Is there much advantage for the extra weight compared to the cons of speed.
7. Build quality, quality of rigging, mast etc

Thanks for your patience and I'm sure many of you know my dilema

1-I've sailed 450 but not on long passages. To me , it's dangereous, but yr call.

2-Depends how much you will/will have to motor. Standard 40 HP engines burn 2,3 lt/h each at 2.200 rpm, giving app. 6 kts of speed. On light airs, that gives you a coverage of 1.200 nm. If this is not enough, consider buying a trawler..

3-This is relative..To me, is more than enough, but to you, it may be short..

4-Helia sail a bit better, particularly in light airs..

5-Not necessarily..

6-I haven't seen yet any advantage of heavier cat. In mono's, heavy displacement could have less motion, provided that it was built solid, eg. Hallberg Rassy, etc..

7-About the same.. Helia's forward cabins are slightly larger than L 450, if this does matter for you..

Good luck..

Yeloya

[rallyman1122]

While respecting Yeloya has much more experience that I ever will, you might want to google Catamaran Impi.

They are on a Lagoon 440 and have been for 5 years as they sail around the world. Their blog and YouTube channel offer some good perspectives on the fly bridge.

Personally I prefer the Helia over the Lagoon but that's more down to personal taste. And in the end, that's what will work for you as well

[Catopia]

I am sure others here have much more experience and knowledge than I, but I will give my opinion on the L450.

We sailed ours from the Canaries to BVI in 2011/12. What was supposed to be the "Milk Run" turned out to be quite the adventure with sustained 40+ knot winds for days on end and very large seas. We never felt exposed or in jeopardy on the fly bridge. Our L450 felt safe and sound through it all and we even hit 17.6 kts at one point (downhill of course).

Since then we have sailed to Grenada and back in addition to numerous trips to SXM and around the VI. Our L450 performs great and speeds have always been respectable on and off the wind.

We just got back from the Heineken Regatta which we entered for fun. In our group was another 450, a 500 (I think), a Helia 44 a Bavaria Open 40, amongst others. We ended up 4th overall and beat both the Helia 44 and Open 40 after 3 days of racing (despite starting a distant last in every race due to our inexperience) and that is with a crew of complete novices. Sipping cocktails and using our toes on the electric winches, we reeled in the boats ahead in each race and even finished 2nd on the last day, just behind a very hard working crew on the other L450. This was with full fuel and water tanks as well as the rest of the toys on board.

Docking and maneuvering in close quarters is a breeze as the visibility from the fly bridge is unhindered. At anchor the fly bridge and sun deck area, are a great place to hang out and enjoy the breeze and view.

So from my experience, the L450 is great and performs surprisingly well for her weight. We are very happy with ours.



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[Two Drifters]

We have a 440 and live on it full time.

She is quite a bit smaller than than the 450, but a useful comparison. Certainly where the fly bridge is concerned.

Most of the time I love it, the position is great for all round sailing vis. But at night in bad weather I do sometimes wish the helm was offset like the Helia. But on balance this is not that often.

Both are great boats.

Also consider that if you are cruising you will be spending more time slowing the boat down than trying to get every bit of speed out of them. Reef early and often. It saves the stress on the sails, the rigging and the boat in general. Lets face it, if cruising does arriveing a day later matter??

Good luck with the purchase. I love Lagoon, very solid but I really like the style of the Helia

[yeloya]

Originally Posted by Two Drifters

We have a 440 and live on it full time.

She is quite a bit smaller than than the 450, but a useful comparison. Certainly where the fly bridge is concerned.

Most of the time I love it, the position is great for all round sailing vis. But at night in bad weather I do sometimes wish the helm was offset like the Helia. But on balance this is not that often.

Both are great boats.

Also consider that if you are cruising you will be spending more time slowing the boat down than trying to get every bit of speed out of them. Reef early and often. It saves the stress on the sails, the rigging and the boat in general. Lets face it, if cruising does arriveing a day later matter??

Good luck with the purchase. I love Lagoon, very solid but I really like the style of the Helia

Well L 440 is a bit different than L 450. I haven't sailed her but it seemed to me faster than L 450.
Regarding the fly bridge, it's a matter of taste but I am sure you wouldn't like to be there when it's blowing 25+ knots on yr face in cold weather.
The biggest problem IMO for L 450 is the unreacheable boom.. Some lines runs down to the cockpit for reefing but in a really bad weather and dark, reefing can be very scary operation, particularly if these lines are fouled for some reason..

After all, L 450 was a success commercially, Lagoon sold tons of them. Recently they have launched the "S" version that you might want give a look..

Yeloya

[Freedom fighter]

Originally Posted by yeloya

1-I've sailed 450 but not on long passages. To me , it's dangereous, but yr call.

2-Depends how much you will/will have to motor. Standard 40 HP engines burn 2,3 lt/h each at 2.200 rpm, giving app. 6 kts of speed. On light airs, that gives you a coverage of 1.200 nm. If this is not enough, consider buying a trawler..

3-This is relative..To me, is more than enough, but to you, it may be short..

4-Helia sail a bit better, particularly in light airs..

5-Not necessarily..

6-I haven't seen yet any advantage of heavier cat. In mono's, heavy displacement could have less motion, provided that it was built solid, eg. Hallberg Rassy, etc..

7-About the same.. Helia's forward cabins are slightly larger than L 450, if this does matter for you..

Good luck..

Yeloya

Yeloya I presume the fuel range you have quoted is for the Lagoon that has a 1000L capacity, @ 2-3Lphr each engine and using both motors @ 6kts is 0.67 - 1L per Nm so that gives a range of 1000 - 1492Nm the Helia at 500L capacity would give a range of 500 - 750Nm. Is my math correct and is 500Nm enough in case of rigging failure?

[Two Drifters]

Originally Posted by yeloya

Well L 440 is a bit different than L 450. I haven't sailed her but it seemed to me faster than L 450.
Regarding the fly bridge, it's a matter of taste but I am sure you wouldn't like to be there when it's blowing 25+ knots on yr face in cold weather.

To be fair my opening comment was that the L 440 is very different to the L 450, but there we go.

Anyway the bridge is fine in 25 knots, the boat really really likes 25 to 30 knots

And we have a front screen to take out the worst of the wind in your face, and as an added bonus we have only once had a wave big enough to break water over the crew on the bridge.

My issue is more to do with the disconnect between the night watcher and the rest of the boat, in the event of something bad happening it is a fair way from the helm to the saloon and vice versa. Therefore for me the offset helm and the bridge is the perfect balance of both worlds.

99% of the time the bridge is the best place to be

[yeloya]

Originally Posted by Freedom fighter

Yeloya I presume the fuel range you have quoted is for the Lagoon that has a 1000L capacity, @ 2-3Lphr each engine and using both motors @ 6kts is 0.67 - 1L per Nm so that gives a range of 1000 - 1492Nm the Helia at 500L capacity would give a range of 500 - 750Nm. Is my math correct and is 500Nm enough in case of rigging failure?

In light winds one engine only should give 6 kts, two engines app. 8 kts.
Let's take 5,8 kts to be on conservative side. That makes 2,3 lt/ 5,8 kts = 0,396 lt per nm. 500 / 0,396 = 1.262 nm of range.
That's obviously a therotical range, currents, dirty hulls, wind and waves, the minimum reserve that should be kept, etc. has to be considered. Then we can agree on 1.000 nm for 500 lt tank..

Yeloya

[JayEnos]

Just purchased a 450F delivery July 1, to the US cannot wait, where do you keep your boat and have you had any major problem?