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Old 21-05-2016, 04:27   #1
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Lagoon 450 s or FP Helia 44?

Hello,
My wife and I are going to buy our first boat for blue water cruising boat. We are keen on a Cat and the Lagoon450 s and FP Helia 44, tick a lot of boxes.
However, I am worried the sailing performance maybe quite poor. The Sales people tell him it will be fine, but I was hoping someone with real experience on these Cats would share their thoughts and advice.


Many Thanks

Andrew
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Old 21-05-2016, 05:23   #2
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Re: Lagoon 450 s or FP Helia 44?

Helia 44 Pacific Crossing Data
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Old 21-05-2016, 08:19   #3
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Re: Lagoon 450 s or FP Helia 44?

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Originally Posted by DotDun View Post
Beat me to it. Have a look at the blog for Starry Horizons and maybe for a few others, Cheeky Monkey and maybe SV Happy Together.

All will discuss the performance they have been able to achieve.
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Old 21-05-2016, 13:51   #4
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Re: Lagoon 450 s or FP Helia 44?

If you are looking at those boats its not really performance that you will find. In the 13 to 15 Metre Range, The Outremer 45 and 51 will perform significantly better, the Freydis ditto, and the St Francis 50 will go better. Lightwave 45 will be quicker as wiill Seawind 1260. To name a few.
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Old 21-05-2016, 18:26   #5
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Re: Lagoon 450 s or FP Helia 44?

In order to avoid pointless discussions certain assumptions have to be made. Firstly, I assume first that you are looking at purchasing a boat new. Secondly, I assume you are cruising, not racing, and therefore require a certain degree of comfort. Ergo, you are going to load the boat up with 2-3 tonnes of gear.

The performance of these boats are well documented as detailed above. My view, having looked closed at the new Lagoon 420S is that it compares well to the Helia 44 and the Lagoon 450S is huge, so the Lagoon 420 is more of a competitor to the Helia.

My Helia has now performed over many miles and conditions at around 170nm per day, and properly sailed and fully loaded with about 3 tons of gear you can get it moving at 10 knots over a few hours in favourable conditions. Having talked to many Lagoon owners I suspect performance is similar.

I have been researching a faster boat for around 2 years. The problem is that after having a Helia or Lagoon you want (or more correctly your other half wants) a boat of similar size, comfort and quality. In order to achieve this in a performance boat you need to go to 50ft +. If you are prepared to sacrifice size, comfort and quality in return for speed then this is a different story.

This pick of the boats in my view is the O51, but Factor has also mentioned other 50ft+ boats that are also applicable. The penalty is cost. You will be paying at least 50% more in cost to achieve this outcome.

What do you get for the money. Remembering, that in comparing apples to apples you need to consider the boat loaded up with say 2-3 ton of gear. Typical performance boats will in all conditions achieve a 25% improvement in average daily performance (let us say 200-220 nm pd), and sailed well will achieve 12-15kn optimal performance over hours.

I hope this helps.
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Old 22-05-2016, 09:22   #6
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Re: Lagoon 450 s or FP Helia 44?

"You can only have two out of three of these factors: speed
inexpensive
roomy"
Phil Weld, multihull designer.
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Old 22-05-2016, 09:26   #7
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Re: Lagoon 450 s or FP Helia 44?

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Originally Posted by cwjohm View Post
In order to avoid pointless discussions certain assumptions have to be made. Firstly, I assume first that you are looking at purchasing a boat new. Secondly, I assume you are cruising, not racing, and therefore require a certain degree of comfort. Ergo, you are going to load the boat up with 2-3 tonnes of gear.

The performance of these boats are well documented as detailed above. My view, having looked closed at the new Lagoon 420S is that it compares well to the Helia 44 and the Lagoon 450S is huge, so the Lagoon 420 is more of a competitor to the Helia.

My Helia has now performed over many miles and conditions at around 170nm per day, and properly sailed and fully loaded with about 3 tons of gear you can get it moving at 10 knots over a few hours in favourable conditions. Having talked to many Lagoon owners I suspect performance is similar.

I have been researching a faster boat for around 2 years. The problem is that after having a Helia or Lagoon you want (or more correctly your other half wants) a boat of similar size, comfort and quality. In order to achieve this in a performance boat you need to go to 50ft +. If you are prepared to sacrifice size, comfort and quality in return for speed then this is a different story.

This pick of the boats in my view is the O51, but Factor has also mentioned other 50ft+ boats that are also applicable. The penalty is cost. You will be paying at least 50% more in cost to achieve this outcome.

What do you get for the money. Remembering, that in comparing apples to apples you need to consider the boat loaded up with say 2-3 ton of gear. Typical performance boats will in all conditions achieve a 25% improvement in average daily performance (let us say 200-220 nm pd), and sailed well will achieve 12-15kn optimal performance over hours.

I hope this helps.
Agree with cwjohn; We have a Lagoon 400S2 and are switching it for a 450 S. Not for performance, just that we were offered a good trade and believe that the second hand value of the 450 S will be good. The 400 has easily done 10 kts and the 450 is 2 meters longer so I guess it will be slightly faster.

Look at the ARC winners. What boats are consistently in the top there. That should be a good measure since there all kinds of boats there and they are loaded for cruising, not prepared for a race.

You can read the magazines like Multihull World, they test all kinds of multi hulls. They are also honest about performance and admit that you must keep a performance boat light.

Compare with cars; A friend of mine has a Ferrari for racing at weekends, but he chooses the SUV when going on vacation with the family.
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Old 22-05-2016, 13:32   #8
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Re: Lagoon 450 s or FP Helia 44?

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Look at the ARC winners. .
Or not. The ARC is irrelevant in comparing boats
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Old 22-05-2016, 13:33   #9
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Re: Lagoon 450 s or FP Helia 44?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scaramanga F25 View Post
"You can only have two out of three of these factors: speed
inexpensive
roomy"
Phil Weld, multihull designer.
It was actually Dick Newick who said

PRICE, PERFORMANCE, COMFORT - pick any two you ike
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Old 22-05-2016, 13:46   #10
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Re: Lagoon 450 s or FP Helia 44?

Think it was Richard Newick said something along those lines. Phil Weld sailed Newick designed boats
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Old 22-05-2016, 16:33   #11
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Re: Lagoon 450 s or FP Helia 44?

We have had a 2014 FP Helia 44 for use in our sailing school since January and I have been fairly impressed with the boat. It sails better than I had given it credit for. The boat is extremely maneuverable. I have impressed several experienced sailors with it's ability to tack easily. I really like the way it sails. I also really like the layout design of the boat. What I do not like is the build quality of the boat. It seems like FP has chosen to cut costs in some ridiculous places. For example one manual bilge pump mounted in the cockpit with a long hose rather than one for each hull with fixed pickup hose.

You have to understand that neither of the boats you mentioned are what I would consider performance catamarans - but if you are looking for a comfortable production boat with acceptable sailing characteristics, the Helia is a good choice.

If you are interested in checking out some performance boats that are also comfortable - take a look at Balance Catamarans. If I was looking for a performance cruising catamaran, I would take a serious look at the Balance 451. Full disclosure - I am a broker for The Multihull Company who is involved in the design and production of the Balance catamarans.
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Old 22-05-2016, 17:04   #12
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Re: Lagoon 450 s or FP Helia 44?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Factor View Post
Or not. The ARC is irrelevant in comparing boats

Shhhhhhh! Don't tell P*x that.
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Old 23-05-2016, 00:13   #13
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Re: Lagoon 450 s or FP Helia 44?

The FP is much better built than Lagoon and I would suspect also sails better but then I have sailed past too many Lagoons to ever recommend them to anyone.
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Old 23-05-2016, 09:03   #14
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Re: Lagoon 450 s or FP Helia 44?

Draw a triangle with three equal sides. Label the corners as follows "Economy", "Comfort", "Performance". Those are the three key trade offs you have to weigh when you shop for a catamaran. To me the Bavaria Nautitiech Open 46 strikes the right balance between these three factors. Check out my video on the Open 46 here:
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Old 24-05-2016, 21:18   #15
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Re: Lagoon 450 s or FP Helia 44?

Great video!!
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