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Old 28-01-2013, 20:03   #16
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Re: Lagoon 440/450 VS FP Helia/Salina VS Leopard/Other? Help needed!

Magor,
We have not lived aboard, but have chartered a number of boats on Gulf Coast. and VI over the past 30 yrs. My wife & I are in our 60s, and crew are in their 40s. Our recent experience with the FP Belize 43 was a real pleasure. She was a 3c/2h plan, well maintained. Our crew was 3 couples, the third couple with zero sailing experience. The boat did everything we asked of her. She was outfitted from the factory with a AC & generator, which leaves space in the starbord engine room for a compressor. At the end of the charter we simply couldn't think of any major changes we would want to make to her. The first hour of the passage from St. Thomas to St. John was directly into 22kn trades. We decided to motor and not spend the effort/time sailing SE and back. Aside from wave splashed crew on the tramp, the 14 ft swells were not noticeable... The non-sailing couple was the real indicator of the boats comfort.

The combination of the chop and the trades on the approach to the moorings at Marina Key was visually a scare! But the boat tracked perfectly through the mooring field to the selected ball, and stopped when commanded.

We eyeballed the Lagoons and didn't see any we liked better than the FP. Access to the boom was excellent. Raising the last 30% of the main did require two crew. She was equipped with a full-batten main which was a chore to keep out of the lazy-jacks, when raising. The galley was simply top notch. Can't say enough about the fridge/freezer.

In all honesty, this was a 10 yr old boat, and had recent maintenance done on the furler, which failed just off The Baths. We also had some unexplained generator problems which caused frustration with the AC. All said, it is not a light boat, but a very well engineered and comfortable boat, which I would not hesitate to take offshore. Suggest you look at a 4-7 year old boat. As a live-aboard, consider the comfort of the 3-cabin version.
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Old 28-01-2013, 22:25   #17
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Re: Lagoon 440/450 VS FP Helia/Salina VS Leopard/Other? Help needed!

Quote:
Originally Posted by smj View Post
I would agree there are many overweight cats that plunge through waves rather than float over but in my opinion they are badly designed. Your draft has nothing to do with the buoyancy, flotation and motion of your boat. A well designed cat is designed light and kept light.
I disagree, draft in hull form has everything to do with buoyancy,flotation(same thing?) and motion.

Cats can be designed for many purposes, load carrying/ speed or volume.

They can all be called 'well designed' if they fit the purpose they were designed for.

The section shape combined with power to weight is the delicate balance either way.

Cheers
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Old 28-01-2013, 22:33   #18
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Re: Lagoon 440/450 VS FP Helia/Salina VS Leopard/Other? Help needed!

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Originally Posted by DotDun View Post
800mm? Is that a magic number?

My hulls are 457mm in the water, what does that mean?

Cats, including production Cats, bounce on top compared to a heavy displacement monohull. The ride is very different.
No magic number just my point of saying a deeper draft cat doesn't necessarily fit the old adage of sailing on, not through, the water. We draw 1200 keel included so that's def not sailing on the water.

Agree the motion is totally different but interestingly my wife hasn't been seasick in 9 months of cruising and that's a positive!!!

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Old 28-01-2013, 23:04   #19
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Re: Lagoon 440/450 VS FP Helia/Salina VS Leopard/Other? Help needed!

Interesting thing about LAR keels is that although they increase draft they also increase load carrying of the respective cats.

Two keels on a larger cat can easily displace over 1 cubic meter or one ton of water. Taking into account its weigh depending on density of materials they can easily add 500kg to 750 kg to the load carrying capacity of the cat. Possibly just one of reasons they are widely used by most of the production cats.
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Old 01-02-2013, 15:57   #20
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Re: Lagoon 440/450 VS FP Helia/Salina VS Leopard/Other? Help needed!

Thanks for the feedback. Very helpful. I'm mow inclined much more to a used cat. Still very conflicted over a lagoon vs FP. Probably tending towards a lagoon. Still open to persuasion from any avid FP fans!
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Old 01-02-2013, 16:34   #21
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Re: Lagoon 440/450 VS FP Helia/Salina VS Leopard/Other? Help needed!

Quote:
Originally Posted by downunder View Post
Interesting thing about LAR keels is that although they increase draft they also increase load carrying of the respective cats.

Two keels on a larger cat can easily displace over 1 cubic meter or one ton of water. Taking into account its weigh depending on density of materials they can easily add 500kg to 750 kg to the load carrying capacity of the cat. Possibly just one of reasons they are widely used by most of the production cats.
That's true and the cost is wetted surface area, also giving some grip going to windward.
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Old 01-02-2013, 17:18   #22
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Re: Lagoon 440/450 VS FP Helia/Salina VS Leopard/Other? Help needed!

Can I make a suggestion toward the Leopard? From what I've heard, they focus mainly on repeat customers, many owners come to them again and again. They are probably the MOST repairable boat out there. Access to everything is unmatched. While they will be, and are, heavier than FP, the new models have better structural bouyancy, larger crash compartments (safer) than most, and have a very innovative interior that allows you to have more usable space. Because their cabin roof extends forward and aft over the cockpit, what you end up with is a blurred inside and outside which can offer three times the space then a traditional catamaran which has a separate bimini and no forward sheltered space. I personally put an emphasis on usable space, structual bouyancy for safety, and easy repairability.
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Old 01-02-2013, 17:27   #23
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Would it be fair to say the Leopard 4600 is the pick?
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Old 01-02-2013, 21:11   #24
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Re: Lagoon 440/450 VS FP Helia/Salina VS Leopard/Other? Help needed!

Were two Moorings 4600's in Mackay marina having their bottoms touched up last weekend. presumably charter vessels from Whitsundays.
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Old 01-02-2013, 22:05   #25
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Re: Lagoon 440/450 VS FP Helia/Salina VS Leopard/Other? Help needed!

Had a gentleman who is past retirement, very well off come on board our boat with his family for some drinks when we are at the quay at TROGIR, he owns a Moorings 46 that's chartered out of Sunsail in Tortula, from memory. He was very satisfied with Sunsails performance looking after his boat.

He said it was the best investment he had because of the reciprocal usage of the same boat worldwide, he had cruised Tahiti and Australia now Croatia.
His boat was about to come out of charter, after seeing our boat, he went right through it, he instructed them to resell it for him opting to buy a 440 Owners version.

We in turn had dinner on board his boat and found the use of space to be deficient, the step down to the hulls dangerous, refrigeration inadequate in size and place.

Sailing wise they could just beat us in light airs, our boat in cruising trim theirs in very light charter trim.

It was just his opinion but i could see his point.

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Old 02-02-2013, 02:13   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagoon4us View Post
Had a gentleman who is past retirement, very well off come on board our boat with his family for some drinks when we are at the quay at TROGIR, he owns a Moorings 46 that's chartered out of Sunsail in Tortula, from memory. He was very satisfied with Sunsails performance looking after his boat.

He said it was the best investment he had because of the reciprocal usage of the same boat worldwide, he had cruised Tahiti and Australia now Croatia.
His boat was about to come out of charter, after seeing our boat, he went right through it, he instructed them to resell it for him opting to buy a 440 Owners version.

We in turn had dinner on board his boat and found the use of space to be deficient, the step down to the hulls dangerous, refrigeration inadequate in size and place.

Sailing wise they could just beat us in light airs, our boat in cruising trim theirs in very light charter trim.

It was just his opinion but i could see his point.

Cheers
Very hard to beat a 440, many will argue but the above speaks volumes
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Old 02-02-2013, 05:03   #27
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Re: Lagoon 440/450 VS FP Helia/Salina VS Leopard/Other? Help needed!

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Would it be fair to say the Leopard 4600 is the pick?
actually the 44 and 48. These are the new models. The older ones didn't have the forward cockpit and had far smaller structural bouyancy. The new models corrected all the major issues I had with them in the past.
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Old 02-02-2013, 06:45   #28
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Re: Lagoon 440/450 VS FP Helia/Salina VS Leopard/Other? Help needed!

Without wanting to rubbish any boat or getting into a 'mine is better than yours' debate,
these are the Salina's advantages:
- Lightness at 13.5 Ton loaded I feel very light
- Bridgedeck clearance: more space = less bumps
- Helm visibility: an see all four pointy bits from the helm
- Rudder position:with the rudders behind the props excellent slow speed maneuverability.
- Zip-unzip-fold the main walking on the rooftop
- Sailing: I always sail at more than 1/2 wind speed and have never been overtaken by a Leopard, a Lagoon or other FP

Then, of course there are other more subjective/ ergonomic reasons on why I prefer the Salina, but I am biased because I own one.
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Old 26-03-2013, 15:56   #29
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Re: Lagoon 440/450 VS FP Helia/Salina VS Leopard/Other? Help needed!

Thanks all. Thinking about going to la grande motte multihull show to see the helia and some lagoons up close
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Old 26-03-2013, 21:31   #30
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Re: Lagoon 440/450 VS FP Helia/Salina VS Leopard/Other? Help needed!

Hi Magor,

I feel I should throw my 6 pence in as a biased Lagoon 450 owner. I changed reluctantly from years of keel boat sailing. I now would never go back. Apart from initial cost a cat holds so many advantages over a keel boat. Being new to cats I was nervous initially but having been out in 42kts and other times with a bit of a swell I feel really safe now. He is my Lagoon in some waves with me solo:



I think all the cats you mention here are great and I am sure that all have their owns specific advantage. I do feel that up to and including any 45ft cat that the living space and volume of the Lagoon 450 is probably the biggest. Yes the vertical windows may look less than streamlined from the outside but the inside space is fantastic. I usually use the drop down clears around the cockpit and this makes for a massive and dry living area. I have two big tables so ample seating inside and out. Rated to take 30 people on a day trip means I just keep inviting people! Forward cockpit/flybridge/aft cockpit/saloon - we have space to spread out.

I don't agree with the weight/speed theories as my Lagoon 450 gets along very well, I suppose I would say boat speed was typically half wind speed under sail. But with 1000 liters diesel if I am under 6 knots I use an engine. I have surfed at 16 knots, really stable!

I only have one issue with the Lagoon 450. The stack pack is easy to use excepting that the covers take a bit of work to put back over but I only do this at the end of a trip away. Otherwise I love every aspect of this yacht.

Good luck with your purchase.
Dave
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