420: Lagoon 420 Owners & Fans

[Biaha]

Hi, Biaha is the name of my so loved L410 that crossed half of the world with me and my wife......
It's great to see all these going on here.
I would like to remeber to you all a few things:
1 this is the forum with one of the biggest replies here. (that means it's the boat of the moment)
2 Lagoon is the bigest. on production catamarans by far
3 How many here are really owners, and how many just want to create caos and put this product down?
4 All the pioners always been critised for inovation. ( everybody is following if you guys didn't notice yet)
5 you all will have a warranty from the best after sales ever. And the real owners of Lagoon can testify this.
6 yes I'm involved somehow with the 420, but I will leave this aside.
7 The system is ready
8 It's a beautifull boat.
9 For the Leopard comparation, I beat a Leopard 47 with my slow 410 in crusing mode on bad seas..... never in good condition, we crossed trough a few islands in the pacific together. (the owner of the 47 is a racing guy, as myself)
10 as you notice english is not my main language.
11 Congratulation to all the new owners you did a great choice. and remember that this list is public, don't depreciate your investment, especialy if you are not a owner. Seen this on another owner list and it didn't look good.
Chears to all

[ess105]

Hi,

You make very good points.

I believe the general sentiment of the owners is one of excitement and satisfaction with our purchase. This certainly reflects my own.

Personally I think the only issue here was an overly optimistic schedule for shows and delivery that was initially set by the manufacturer. The sentiment expressed on this board, in my oppinion, is more to do with 'Christmas' being delayed.

I'm pretty sure that when Christmas comes, this board will light up with positive comments. The audience we have will see it and any interim despondancy will be put into context.

For those watching - welcome to the ride. As owners we're living with the excitement of waiting for our boats to arrive. I'm glad to have you along wioth us.

I'll tell you this though. My wife and I love this boat. At the boat show we could not get off the boat. This is going to be our future home and we can't wait.

Steve

[schoonerdog]

Hey guys,

Does anyone plan on upgrading the batteries on their boats to the Lithium Sulpher batteries offered by Valence Technology? They have initially higher costs but last 7 times longer than lead acid so have the potential of lower total cost of ownership and unlike lithium ion batteries used in laptops don't have safety issues. Friends of mine love the Lagoon cabins and are looking at the 420 and 440. I think the weight saving would also be substantial. Valence - U-Charge™ Power System – Kilowatts of safe Lithium-ion Power

[ess105]

Originally Posted by schoonerdog

Hey guys,

Does anyone plan on upgrading the batteries on their boats to the Lithium Sulpher batteries offered by Valence Technology? They have initially higher costs but last 7 times longer than lead acid so have the potential of lower total cost of ownership and unlike lithium ion batteries used in laptops don't have safety issues. Friends of mine love the Lagoon cabins and are looking at the 420 and 440. I think the weight saving would also be substantial. Valence - U-Charge™ Power System – Kilowatts of safe Lithium-ion Power

I plan on upgrading at the end of the first sets servicable life. The battery industry is clearly moving forward at the moment and I believe I'll be better placed in 2-3 years time to make a decision on this. By that time we may see better available energy density, weight, recycle time, lifetime characteristics than we see today.

It's decisions like this that makes 420 ownership exciting for me as the technical journey is not over when we take delivery of the boat. The moduilarity of the systems allows the boat to improve over time.

[Limpet]

I recently charted a 410 S2 and while it was a fine boat, it could have been improved. As I look at the 420, I see most of the improvements I would like to see.
However, I came across the pricing for the 420 including the options list pricing. When I first learned about the 420 it was in the $385K range, now its about $445K, and you can't even get one until '08. Looking over the pricing on the options list, some of these options are just priced unreasonably.
So while I very much like the 420, its seems overpriced.
It would seem to be more financial prudent to purchase a 410 and upgrade the systems. Once these boats get a little older, the price really seems to come down. So perhaps I need to look for a 410 S2.

Does anyone know how many 410 S2's were converted to the solomon electric drives? Was this an option from Lagoon at the time?
How does the solomon solution compare to the current hybrid solution on the 420?

Thanks,

[BambooSailor]

When 420 was in $385k range Euro cost US$1.18 or even less. Now it is $1.32. Every cent makes big difference on $400k boat either way or . And US dealers will rarely shield you from big currency fluctuations.

And, btw, 410 with Solomon drives is more expensive than 420. I do not think Solomons are priced reasonably.

[LtBrett]

I'm back from a week aboard Waypoint, and I posted a detailed log of my adventures on TTOL. Here is an excerpt from that log that discusses the technical aspects of sailing and regenerating following a loss of the generator:
"Thursday, December 14
I didn’t want to call the Catamaran Company until we were underway, in case they didn’t want us to leave Gorda Sound without our genny. So I topped off our water and got underway for Anegada. I set the main on the second reef as soon as we cleared the mooring field. It was blowing a steady 25 kts, and seas were forecast at 9 feet. Waypoint, as I mentioned, is an electric boat. She is powered by four 6HP electric motors, two on each shaft. She has a 144V DC generator that replenishes 12 mammoth 12V batteries. The batteries can also be replenished while under sail by the action of the propellers. I had no more genny, so it was up to sail power alone to keep our batteries charged. I was carefully monitoring voltage and amp hours to ensure we had plenty of power for motoring if needed, without discharging our batteries to the point where they may be damaged. It was time to put the theory to the test.
Clearing Gorda Sound, we turned NNE on a close reach in 5-7 foot seas. Waypoint was cruising at about 6.5 kts, and the propellers generated 1.5A per shaft. Our electrical load was about 1-2A, but the Link 10 showed .3A charging on average. At that rate, it would take a long time to make back the 26 Amp hour deficit we had. No matter, we could draw over 100 Amp hours without damaging the batteries. Voltage still showed 153V (generator voltage was 168V, and we departed the dock with 155V and -12 amp hours. Voltage while the motors ran dropped to 146V. The manual said not to drop voltage below 138. Amps while motoring at 6kts were -40 per shaft, but jumped around a bit. You would blow a breaker if you exceeded -100A total. Motoring at 3.5 kts drew about 25 amps per shaft. The manual said she could motor for two hours on a full charge). Propeller drag cost us about a knot with the propellers in N compared to when the throttle was advanced so as to zero the ammeters, but if you bumped the throttles just slightly forward, you got about .6kts back and the charging current improved. Overall, I expect an electric cat to be about .5 kts slower than a diesel cat.
Technical details aside, this was a manly sail. So I let Billy take the helm. Seas built to a 7 foot average, with the occasional 10-footer spraying us as it broke over our starboard hull nearly broadside. Billy and I were having a blast! Emmy was green, and laying in the cabin. I played with pointing the boat. If I got too close to the wind, about 35degrees, I got so much weather helm she would just round up uncontrollably. This is where I really appreciated the electric engines. Tap the windward throttle, and you’re back in control. In fact, motor sailing was the same as pure sailing, except you went faster. There was no additional noise or vibration. It is noteworthy, however, that anytime you are underway you must have the keys on, which energizes some fairly loud cooling fans. With 20+ kts of wind, you don’t hear the fans or the slight wine of the electric motors."

I'd be happy to answer any other questions abotu my experience. BTW, I booked Dignity, an electric 420 for next season.

Cheers!
Brett

[Limpet]

Brett,
I was just there in Tortola at Nanny Key and I half remember seeing a 410 with solomon electrics. I believe it was called Waypoint. Is this the same boat?

[Limpet]

BambooSailor,
I can't be sure, but I think the price increase occured before the significant decrease in the dollar relative to the Euro.
Why do you say the 410 is more expensive? As far as I know, the 410 is no longer offered. When I say I might consider a 410 to save cost, I'm referring to buying a used one, one which has seen its resale value decrease due to its age. I'm thinking a 2001 to a 2003 model, perhaps in the $300K range. I came across a 420 for sale and the price was $510K. I'm not sure which options, if any, it had.
The 420 seems to be more suited for my needs, but its just outside my price range.

[BambooSailor]

I meant "was more expensive", while 410 was still offered.

[ess105]

Originally Posted by LtBrett

I'd be happy to answer any other questions abotu my experience. BTW, I booked Dignity, an electric 420 for next season.

Cheers!
Brett

Brett - thanks for your account of your trip on Waypoint. Please provide a similar account of your trip on Dignity. I have a certain interest. I have sent you a private message to introduce myself.

Steve

[Jeannius]

Originally Posted by Limpet

Does anyone know how many 410 S2's were converted to the solomon electric drives? Was this an option from Lagoon at the time?
How does the solomon solution compare to the current hybrid solution on the 420?

Thanks,

Limpet

There is a long trip report from someone who recently chartered an electric 410 in the BVI right here.... Traveltalkonline: Trip Report: Electric Cat, Dec 9-17 (long)

[ess105]

Yet more Lagoon 420 pics on CatCo's site : http://www.catamarans.com/catamaranc...dex.asp?bhcp=1

[ess105]

I'm getting indications that CatCo are in the process of taking possession of hulls #5 and #7. I have asked for some pics of these boats as they should have the modifications following the first 3 prototypes - I anticipate this will take some time. Looks like output is around 1 a week at the moment. Dignity's date is set back 3 weeks but (for the benefit of LtBrett) it doesn't look like any charters will be impacted by this. The assembly line is rolling ....

[Limpet]

Although I very much like the concept of the electric drive on the 420, I'm starting to have second thoughts. While I think the electric drives are ideal for getting in and out of the harbor, and brief motoring while reefings sails or dealing with objects/man over board, my concern is for times when you need extended motoring. Consider for example the case were you find yourself in unexpected weather and you have had to drop the sails to prevent a "knock down" due to the high winds. If the situation was that the wind was just going to get worse, you might want to motor your way out.
Can the one diesel engine provide enough power to drive both electric motors continuously? Under this condition, how long would the fuel last?

This issue really started to come in focus when I read this thread:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...down-6200.html
These guys had their sails furled and apparently just had a sea anchor. I assume they had not been motoring or for some reason were unable to motor. Then again, they could have just been to far from any point of safety. Regardless, I think I would like to have the option to motor for extended periods of time in emergencies.