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Old 15-08-2016, 12:59   #106
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Re: Lagoon 420 hybrid + modern tech

So as I read that the boat can maintain top speed of 13kn for about an hour and a half before it needs to recharge for two days. So let's assume 20nm made every two days... That's an average speed of 0.83kn. Assuming you don't turn on the lights, or run the generator, or have a fridge...

Sure you don't use any fuel, but it will take you about 185 days to cross the Atlantic Ocean. I think I will use a sailboat and take my chances the wind will die from time to time. Bet I still make it before this does.
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Old 15-08-2016, 13:00   #107
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Re: Lagoon 420 hybrid + modern tech

So as I read that the boat can maintain top speed of 13kn for about an hour and a half before it needs to recharge for two days. So let's assume 20nm made every two days... That's an average speed of 0.83kn. Assuming you don't turn on the lights, or run the generator, or have a fridge, or have any overcast...

Sure you don't use any fuel, but it will take you about 185 days to cross the Atlantic Ocean. I think I will use a sailboat and take my chances the wind will die from time to time. Bet I still make it before this does.
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Old 15-08-2016, 13:04   #108
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Re: Lagoon 420 hybrid + modern tech

I never ever compared prices of Electric propulsion boats to diesel powered boats (beside statement that they're more expensive as of today).
82kW electric motors can be powered by 15 kW panels, they will do anywhere from zero to 15 kW of power. If more power ever needed - there's battery bank and generator for that.
This thing does exist, it's on water, so sooner or later all of these numbers will be proofed (or not).
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Old 15-08-2016, 15:03   #109
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Re: Lagoon 420 hybrid + modern tech

Some interesting info here.
http://www.yachtingmagazine.com/sea-greener


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Old 15-08-2016, 16:02   #110
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Re: Lagoon 420 hybrid + modern tech

Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
Interesting specifications:
Electric motor specified: 2 powerful electric motors
Solar array: Powerful solar array
Generator: Range-Extender sufficient to supply both e-motors and household if necessary

These are direct quotes from the specifications.

How many HP in a "powerful"?


Sure looks like they are avoiding giving you the details. My guess is if you see the details, it won't look nearly as good as they make it sound.
Interesting use of the word "specifications". Nothing specific there

Just more of the same old starry eyed puff.
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Old 15-08-2016, 17:24   #111
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Re: Lagoon 420 hybrid + modern tech

Quote:
Originally Posted by PSea
Pretty funny thread.

Post 17 is someone who has sailed thousands of miles using EP on a self admittedly, heavy 41' Lagoon cat and all the naysayers brush right past it and continue throwing out straw arguments & false facts which clearly demonstrate a lack of understanding. In the context of distance cruising, I'd love to know how many here have both a diesel engine and a generator.
(especially those in Cat's)

By the same token, I really wish proponents of EP wouldn't take the bait. It doesn't help when one accepts the basis of some of the foolish arguments against EP.

1. Can EP be sized to properly push a boat at hull speed? Yes
I don't recall anyone saying you couldn't set up a boat to have a short burst at hull speed. Since few people drag race their cruising boats, not really relevant.


Good. One less difference between us.

2. Can it push the boat at hull speed for as long as a diesel engine can? On just batteries? Nope. But who's advocating that?? Most EP distance cruisers will have a generator which provides just as much range as a diesel engine. However, the generator will do so at a lower fuel consumption rate, more quietly and more efficiently since the generator is tuned to provide power at more optimal loads.
Actually, many are advocating just that. A battery bank with solar or wind power to regenerate.


Those (hardly "many")advocating such don't have systems installed. They are wrong. Glad we agree here as well.

As far as generators go, a 4-5kw generator with additional losses will not replace 30-50kw of propulsion power.



You've created a scenario which fits your outcome. 4-5kw isn't going to work for a 10kW EP system. I stated that previously. Let's try to keep it real.


Efficiency will be worse with the generator as your typical propulsion motor is selected to operate at peak efficiency at cruise speed, so the generator doesn't gain anything in that respect but does lose efficiency converting mechanical power to electric and back again. So it's not really going to have the same range. Not a drastic loss but certainly not an advantage.


The generator isn't the propulsion. It's the electrical supply to either the EP motor and/or the battery bank. Again, let's keep the discussion on point. You concede that a generator is more efficient at charging batteries vs your diesel engine. My point exactly.

3. I've yet to find a single proponent (cruiser category) of EP who advocates solar or wind as the sole source of
charging. You turn on the generator just like you start the diesel engines or your generator. Pretty simple. That said, solar/wind are great sources to top batteries whether EP or strictly diesel.

I suggest a search of electric power threads. There are lots of them. In fact the majority I would say are trying to eliminate the diesel engine. If you are going to simply turn on the generator and use the electric motors effectively as a transmission replacement, why bother?

Three reasons. 1)Because the opponents seem to think the generator can't achieve a sailor's propulsion objectives. In fact, that's untrue. 2) You don't have to run the generator all the time, nor have I advocated that. It depends on the battery bank chosen. For some, perhaps day sailors, they'll chose a bank that allows them to leave & re-enter the marina. They have no need for bigger and in fact won't even have a generator. Others who cruise will have a generator and a big bank. The rest of the EP world will be somewhere in between. Sound familiar? Nothing different than those who choose no diesel engine, just a diesel engine or a diesel engine and generator. 3) as I've previously stated, a generator is more efficient at generating electricity, they're easier to maintain in most cases, don't weigh as much as a diesel engine, they don't vibrate as much and they tend to not be as noisy. But the real point is, whether or not they're planning to get rid of all diesel isn't a reflection of an EP system. It's a reflection of the choices made by the owner.

4. These wild figures for battery banks and horsepower are pretty funny. Start w/ your boat's displacement. Check w/ those THAT USE EP. Ask them how they calculated their power requirements. Most will tell you that you need 1-2kW per ton. That tells you what size motor you need. The motor size dictates the appropriate generator size.

Exact same way you select the motor size for a diesel engine. Remember, the HP for a cruising boat is typically controlled by the power needed to maintain cruising speed plus a bit extra to counter adverse conditions.

So we don't disagree. Bad owner choices are not limited to just diesel or EP owners.

5. Since no one using EP is suggesting their battery banks are limitless sources of energy why do you proponents keep taking the bait? Their diesel engines don't have a limitless supply of diesel. It's a ridiculous argument. Don't take the bait.

I suggest googling "order of magnitude". At typical cruise speed, you would need a massive battery bank at a massive price to provide even 100miles of range. If you go with a more modest battery bank, you would be lucky to get 20miles range. Diesel boats with a low range might have 300-500miles range.

PS: This seems to conflict with your point 2 that everyone will simply crank up the generator every time they want to motor. Which is it? Battery bank or generator?


The choice isn't mutually exclusive. If you have a small bank and no generator, you will be limited in range. If you have a generator that can power the motor sufficiently, you're limited by the amount of diesel in the tank. Again, no different than an all-diesel set up. There are limitations, but that's not a fault or a drawback of EP. It's a reflection of an owner's choices. If you have a small bank, you won't be at cruising speed very long. geez.

6. If you have a 55hp diesel engine. You don't need a 55hp EP system. You guys advocating this simply haven't done any research. You need 55hp diesel because of the torque curve. You need significantly less EQUIVALENT hp for EP. Torque is the reason. I suggest you do more reading.

We've already debunked the "magic" electric HP. I suggest you do a little research. The controlling factor for HP on a cruising boat is cruise speed. You need just as much HP to maintain a particular speed in particular conditions regardless of the power source.

The instant torque will offer better acceleration but unless you are drag racing with your cruising boat, it is at best a minor consideration.

Magic? LOL. You seem to consistently rely on a scenario that fits your reality and extrapolate to all scenarios. It's simply not the case and torque absolutely matters. No one installs EP for acceleration. But then again, no sailboat does it w/diesel either. A boat needs less EQUIVALENT hp to reach the same speeds and it's specifically because of torque. I suggest you focus your research on those who have installed EP instead of those that haven't. Perhaps "EQUIVALENT" just isn't sinking in...

7. If your boat is equipped with a diesel engine and generator as most serious cruisers have, let's compare. Any distance cruiser using EP/generator has one less engine to
service and all the parts, filters & crawling into tight spots to access it. So EP definitely cuts down on maintenance and it's much, much quieter. No idling. No warming up and you don't need a generator to leave the doc's. Interesting how everyone complains about boats being about fixing things in remote places. Well EP has one less MAJOR component to fix. For those times one has to start the generator....well, you didn't purchase your generator to just have it sit there (which isn't good for a generator).

I actually agree with you on this one to a degree. I agree that it's no worse maintenance wise. I disagree when you start claiming it's quieter and more reliable. If you are putting out 30-40hp, it's going to make a similar amount of noise. Likewise, you are replacing one item that can break down with another item that can break down.


Not sure if the noise you refer to is the generator or the EP motor. Hopefully, you realize the motor is darn quiet. No worse? You have one less diesel to service. That alone makes a big difference. Whether something breaks down or not isn't exclusive to a hybrid setup. This is a false argument. No need to respond. All boats have mechanical systems that will break down.

8. Battery banks. It's not much different for EP/gen vs a straight diesel set up. You decide what you're power consumption is going to be and size your bank appropriately. This is a battery discussion not an EP discussion. EP has one more way to charge than diesel unless you spend a boatload on a hydro generator. If you want less weight and the ability to discharge to lower levels you pick one type of battery. If you're cost conscious, you'll pick another source. I fail to see how this is a knock against EP as there are far more threads discussing this w/ diesel power vs EP. Again, a null argument.

If you are simply putting in a less efficient, more costly diesel-electric drivetrain, yes, the battery bank is largely irrelevant to the discussion.

Go read some of the threads that do have people wanting significant range off the battery bank and come back to discuss.



Another false argument. I'm not advocating only a battery bank. I'm advocating from the position of someone that is a cruiser. Is a cruiser going to have just a diesel? Just batteries? Nope. I've read them all btw. Your characterization of the new system being less efficient is, again, a scenario designed to fit the outcome you desire. Another false point.


9. EP
electrical system complexity. Really?? Are you really going to advocate a diesel engine + a generator to recharge is any less complex?? (alternators, dual alternator systems, inverters, converters, chargers, blah, blah blah). Point being, you as the owner decide the complexity of the system, that's not EP's fault....it's the owner's fault.

I thought you said, every true cruiser has a generator. Why would they have dual alternators, inverters converters, blah, blah, blah (as you put it) if they have a generator?

Then again, where were people saying they were too complicated? They are a different kind of complicated but not necessarily worse.


"I thought...". Perhaps that's your problem right there. First, I didn't quantify them as "true cruisers." Your words, not mine. At this point, it's pretty clear you're arguments are becoming desperate to the point of putting words in my mouth. Many, many cruisers use dual alternators on their engines...or have you decided to ignore those discussions. Apparently, you've also missed the entire boards dedicated to servicing diesel engines. Conveniently forgotten? I think so! Debate until you're blue in the face. No one is going to agree servicing two diesel's is easier than servicing one. 'nuff said.


10. Single point of failure. I got a kick out of this one. What do you do when your diesel engine fails? You fix it. I fail to see why this is an argument exclusive to EP. In fact, electric motors have a MUCH HIGHER life cycle. I'd be willing to bet even a
novice EP user can switch out a controller faster than you can change out the starter or a fuel pump.

The motor may or may not have a higher life living down in a wet corrosive bilge. I certainly wouldn't buy low volume specialty electronics that control that electric motor are more reliable.


Ok, so you agree a proper marine-ized motor can have a lifecycle that exceeds diesel. Thanks. Hope that didn't hurt too much. Again, how does purchasing cheap only apply to hybrid? lol


11. Prop drag. Another funny one. You can put the EP in
gear just enough to minimize all prop drag at the most negligible amounts of draw. Voila! Zero drag.

I don't think prop drag is a big issue but are you saying you are going to leave the generator running all the time just to keep the prop at zero drag? You said, we would just use our generator and not the battery bank.


Did I say anything about involving the generator in this point? Nope. Did I say I would exclusively use the generator in any points above? Nope. Seriously, dude. Do you have conversations with yourself. Now it's getting a little scary. Never said either. You turn the EP motor on and utilize enough amperage to negate all drag. It's a de minimus amount of draw from the batteries. Drag is an important consideration if you plan to size your propeller for sufficient regen which usually means not folding and larger in size vs what you may have on your boat currently.

12. Some ancillary benefits. A cleaner bilge is nice.

I don't have a dirty bilge. Also if you have propulsion diesel that is leaking fluids, you could just as easily have a generator diesel leaking fluids.



Lucky you! You're the one! Why?... because you regularly clean it. I'd rather have an electric motor that doesn't make the mess to begin with. True. The generator could leak. But if you're used to having a diesel engine and a diesel gen, I've just cut the clean up in half.


Look, if you have a nice boat w/ a couple good working diesel engines, I agree, it's a very expensive proposition switching to EP. If you don't have the nicest boat, there are plenty who are starting to replace diesel w/ EP as DIY projects and it's a VERY inexpensive proposition vs an engine
rebuild. If you're lucky enough to be starting from scratch, I wouldn't think twice. Without hesitation, I'd go EP on a new boat. Do it right and it works very well. Do it wrong and well, it doesn't matter what your talking about when it comes to cruising. It's guaranteed to be a nightmare.

The only way it comes out cheaper is if you accept drastic reductions in capabilities. Also, rebuilding a diesel isn't too expensive if you do it yourself. A cruiser who can DIY an electric drivetrain including the installation of a diesel generator is likely to have the skill set to rebuild a diesel drivetrain.


LOL. Well, as long as you think so. I've just put to rest EVERY single false argument you raised. Since you're the research buff, go check out the success rate on re-build's for cruisers and see how long they tend to last. Perhaps try Morgan's Cloud. PS-the earth isn't flat either.

PSea

ps - if Octopus is still following this thread, I'd love to know what they'd do differently in hindsight. I've found your posts very enlightening.

They "naysayers" have been saying all along, you can build a functional electric powered boat. I don't recall anyone saying it can't be done. The problem is cost, size and capability. One or more of those must be sacrificed in order to do it. There is no magic way around it and that explains why mass production cruising boats aren't being built with electric propulsion. Those who are doing the conversion have made the choice for one reason or another and they are ready to make major sacrifices to get it.


Cost? What does an equivalent EP motor cost? What does the controller cost? What does 48ahr bank cost/weigh? What does the added maintenance cost? What's your time worth?


The problem isn't cost, size or capability. It's your lack of attention to details, generalizations and a simple unwillingness to expand your understanding.


PSea

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Old 15-08-2016, 17:48   #112
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Re: Lagoon 420 hybrid + modern tech

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nammy View Post
Okay so, I got tired of reading by page 8. Lots of rampant speculation. I will attempt to settle a few arguments by posting the results of my refit. My boat isn't a cat but, it's heavy. I'm putting an electric hybrid in my Westsail 32. Pulling her out tomorrow. I will have a 3k propane generator to back up the system and a meager 500 watts or so of solar. The name of the system I chose is Electrprop's Islander plus. I may buy more batteries in the future but, for now, I'll get the basics on that end. Now, I'm a bit of a purist but, I just took the boat over 300 nm on the shakedown cruise and, I never used my engine at hull speed, once. I think I hit 2000rpm once on accident. So, as far as all the worries about range, if I wanted to keep the prop turning, on a sunny day, I can do 3-5 kt just on solar. When the sun goes down, that's just a trickle off the battery. Most "motoring" for a sailor is done in the marina. More trickling. I will never power up my prop at full speed for long periods and, if I do, I have the 3k generator that will take me as far as any propane I have on the boat. That leaves plenty of power to get through some bad current for a couple hours or claw off a Lee shore at night. As far as cost, the install is totally comparable with the cost of a standard petrol replacement.
Now, to the benefits. No fuel or tanks. No oil, no antifreeze. No extra parts all over my boat. No filters. NO THRU HULLS! One... ONE, moving part. No smoke, no dirty bilge, no dirty engine room, no warm up time. No noise, no vibration, no stank!
I still have no proof that it will work but, as a trained diesel mechanic, I can't wait to get this f'n thing off my boat!

Sent from my VS985 4G using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app


Keep us updated!


Again, as I posted to the other guy, while this may work for you, most cruisers would still need a generator for on demand power and as insurance for those moments where the batteries are depleted.


I'm really looking forward to hearing more about the system you chose, what you'd do differently, what surprised you, etc.


Thanks,
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Old 15-08-2016, 17:52   #113
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Re: Lagoon 420 hybrid + modern tech

Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
Interesting specifications:
Electric motor specified: 2 powerful electric motors
Solar array: Powerful solar array
Generator: Range-Extender sufficient to supply both e-motors and household if necessary

These are direct quotes from the specifications.

How many HP in a "powerful"?


Sure looks like they are avoiding giving you the details. My guess is if you see the details, it won't look nearly as good as they make it sound.
Here we agree. These companies don't advance EP. It just advances their company. Your previous post is hogwash. You just don't want to accept the truth.
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Old 16-08-2016, 07:00   #114
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Re: Lagoon 420 hybrid + modern tech

Quote:
Originally Posted by PSea View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by PSea
Pretty funny thread.

Post 17 is someone who has sailed thousands of miles using EP on a self admittedly, heavy 41' Lagoon cat and all the naysayers brush right past it and continue throwing out straw arguments & false facts which clearly demonstrate a lack of understanding. In the context of distance cruising, I'd love to know how many here have both a diesel engine and a generator.
(especially those in Cat's)

By the same token, I really wish proponents of EP wouldn't take the bait. It doesn't help when one accepts the basis of some of the foolish arguments against EP.

1. NA


2. Can it push the boat at hull speed for as long as a diesel engine can? On just batteries? Nope. But who's advocating that?? Most EP distance cruisers will have a generator which provides just as much range as a diesel engine. However, the generator will do so at a lower fuel consumption rate, more quietly and more efficiently since the generator is tuned to provide power at more optimal loads.

NA

As far as generators go, a 4-5kw generator with additional losses will not replace 30-50kw of propulsion power.



You've created a scenario which fits your outcome. 4-5kw isn't going to work for a 10kW EP system. I stated that previously. Let's try to keep it real.

A 35-50' boat is typically going to have a 4-5kw generator and 30-80hp of propulsion engine(s). 10kw generator is going to be overkill and inefficient for house loads and way underpowered to replace propulsion (unless you accept drastically less power available). My scenario is more typical of existing cruising boats.



Efficiency will be worse with the generator as your typical propulsion motor is selected to operate at peak efficiency at cruise speed, so the generator doesn't gain anything in that respect but does lose efficiency converting mechanical power to electric and back again. So it's not really going to have the same range. Not a drastic loss but certainly not an advantage.


The generator isn't the propulsion. It's the electrical supply to either the EP motor and/or the battery bank. Again, let's keep the discussion on point. You concede that a generator is more efficient at charging batteries vs your diesel engine. My point exactly.

You are changing your story. You recommended a diesel/electric drivetrain. If you are storing that electricity in chemical form (ie: battery) and then converting back to electric, you just added another layer of inefficiency compared to directly using the mechanical energy from the diesel to drive the prop with a conventional drivetrain.

The only reason you would need a massive 10-20kw generator is if you are trying to run the propulsion off the generator (with or without storing that energy in the battery bank and ignoring that it is too small to provide the same propulsion as the typical conventional drivetrain)


3. I've yet to find a single proponent (cruiser category) of EP who advocates solar or wind as the sole source of
charging. You turn on the generator just like you start the diesel engines or your generator. Pretty simple. That said, solar/wind are great sources to top batteries whether EP or strictly diesel.

I suggest a search of electric power threads. There are lots of them. In fact the majority I would say are trying to eliminate the diesel engine. If you are going to simply turn on the generator and use the electric motors effectively as a transmission replacement, why bother?

Three reasons. 1)Because the opponents seem to think the generator can't achieve a sailor's propulsion objectives. In fact, that's untrue. 2) You don't have to run the generator all the time, nor have I advocated that. It depends on the battery bank chosen. For some, perhaps day sailors, they'll chose a bank that allows them to leave & re-enter the marina. They have no need for bigger and in fact won't even have a generator. Others who cruise will have a generator and a big bank. The rest of the EP world will be somewhere in between. Sound familiar? Nothing different than those who choose no diesel engine, just a diesel engine or a diesel engine and generator. 3) as I've previously stated, a generator is more efficient at generating electricity, they're easier to maintain in most cases, don't weigh as much as a diesel engine, they don't vibrate as much and they tend to not be as noisy. But the real point is, whether or not they're planning to get rid of all diesel isn't a reflection of an EP system. It's a reflection of the choices made by the owner.

If you are just day sailing and getting in and out of the marina, it works but kills resale value and falls under my comment about living with less capability.

People "choosing" no diesel engine are far from typical cruisers. It can be done but again falls under accepting drastically reduced propulsion capabilities.

Diesel generators for propulsion are much heavier. They are no easier to maintain and make about the same amount of noise. Provide us some specs because your comments are patently false on this issue.


4. These wild figures for battery banks and horsepower are pretty funny. Start w/ your boat's displacement. Check w/ those THAT USE EP. Ask them how they calculated their power requirements. Most will tell you that you need 1-2kW per ton. That tells you what size motor you need. The motor size dictates the appropriate generator size.

Exact same way you select the motor size for a diesel engine. Remember, the HP for a cruising boat is typically controlled by the power needed to maintain cruising speed plus a bit extra to counter adverse conditions.

So we don't disagree. Bad owner choices are not limited to just diesel or EP owners.

But all the proponents of EP want to compare typical HP conventional drivetrains to under powered EP drivetrains with drastically lower performance figures. It's like saying a compact car gets better efficiency than a sports car, so a compact is just as good of a performance car.


5. Since no one using EP is suggesting their battery banks are limitless sources of energy why do you proponents keep taking the bait? Their diesel engines don't have a limitless supply of diesel. It's a ridiculous argument. Don't take the bait.

I suggest googling "order of magnitude". At typical cruise speed, you would need a massive battery bank at a massive price to provide even 100miles of range. If you go with a more modest battery bank, you would be lucky to get 20miles range. Diesel boats with a low range might have 300-500miles range.

PS: This seems to conflict with your point 2 that everyone will simply crank up the generator every time they want to motor. Which is it? Battery bank or generator?


The choice isn't mutually exclusive. If you have a small bank and no generator, you will be limited in range. If you have a generator that can power the motor sufficiently, you're limited by the amount of diesel in the tank. Again, no different than an all-diesel set up. There are limitations, but that's not a fault or a drawback of EP. It's a reflection of an owner's choices. If you have a small bank, you won't be at cruising speed very long. geez.

It is somewhat complicated by the fact you can vary the size of the battery bank, fuel tank and generator. Pick a scenario for us to discuss. Unless you do an apples to oranges comparison (ie: 35' sailboat with a 200hp conventional drivetrain vs a 30hp EP drivetrain), it will always come out in favor of the conventional drivetrain in terms of capability and efficiency. Feel free to put forward a scenario, so we can discuss.


6. If you have a 55hp diesel engine. You don't need a 55hp EP system. You guys advocating this simply haven't done any research. You need 55hp diesel because of the torque curve. You need significantly less EQUIVALENT hp for EP. Torque is the reason. I suggest you do more reading.

We've already debunked the "magic" electric HP. I suggest you do a little research. The controlling factor for HP on a cruising boat is cruise speed. You need just as much HP to maintain a particular speed in particular conditions regardless of the power source.

The instant torque will offer better acceleration but unless you are drag racing with your cruising boat, it is at best a minor consideration.

Magic? LOL. You seem to consistently rely on a scenario that fits your reality and extrapolate to all scenarios. It's simply not the case and torque absolutely matters. No one installs EP for acceleration. But then again, no sailboat does it w/diesel either. A boat needs less EQUIVALENT hp to reach the same speeds and it's specifically because of torque. I suggest you focus your research on those who have installed EP instead of those that haven't. Perhaps "EQUIVALENT" just isn't sinking in...

Please share how they violate the laws of physics. HP = torque * RPM. Put the same prop on the boat and use a reduction gear so the prop RPM is equal and once you get up to cruising speed, torque & RPM is equal so by definition, HP is equal. HP is HP. There is no MAGIC electric HP.


7. If your boat is equipped with a diesel engine and generator as most serious cruisers have, let's compare. Any distance cruiser using EP/generator has one less engine to
service and all the parts, filters & crawling into tight spots to access it. So EP definitely cuts down on maintenance and it's much, much quieter. No idling. No warming up and you don't need a generator to leave the doc's. Interesting how everyone complains about boats being about fixing things in remote places. Well EP has one less MAJOR component to fix. For those times one has to start the generator....well, you didn't purchase your generator to just have it sit there (which isn't good for a generator).

I actually agree with you on this one to a degree. I agree that it's no worse maintenance wise. I disagree when you start claiming it's quieter and more reliable. If you are putting out 30-40hp, it's going to make a similar amount of noise. Likewise, you are replacing one item that can break down with another item that can break down.

Not sure if the noise you refer to is the generator or the EP motor. Hopefully, you realize the motor is darn quiet. No worse? You have one less diesel to service. That alone makes a big difference. Whether something breaks down or not isn't exclusive to a hybrid setup. This is a false argument. No need to respond. All boats have mechanical systems that will break down.

If you are going to do more than get in and out of the marina, you are going to be running the generator, so the noise level will be pretty close. Then again, on a cruising sailboat, the diesel really doesn't make much noise. I can't tell you how many times I've been inside only to come out and find a neighbor I never heard arriving.

8. Battery banks. It's not much different for EP/gen vs a straight diesel set up. You decide what you're power consumption is going to be and size your bank appropriately. This is a battery discussion not an EP discussion. EP has one more way to charge than diesel unless you spend a boatload on a hydro generator. If you want less weight and the ability to discharge to lower levels you pick one type of battery. If you're cost conscious, you'll pick another source. I fail to see how this is a knock against EP as there are far more threads discussing this w/ diesel power vs EP. Again, a null argument.

If you are simply putting in a less efficient, more costly diesel-electric drivetrain, yes, the battery bank is largely irrelevant to the discussion.

Go read some of the threads that do have people wanting significant range off the battery bank and come back to discuss.


Another false argument. I'm not advocating only a battery bank. I'm advocating from the position of someone that is a cruiser. Is a cruiser going to have just a diesel? Just batteries? Nope. I've read them all btw. Your characterization of the new system being less efficient is, again, a scenario designed to fit the outcome you desire. Another false point.

There are two scenarios:

- Pure Diesel/electric. In that case, it's simply more expensive and less efficient as you've added extra components and more places to lose efficiency. House battery bank will be relatively small as it's not used for propulsion.
- If you try to use a combination of Diesel/electric with battery bank. This requires all the costs, space and weight of a conventional drivetrain plus the generator is larger, heavier and the are additional losses converting to chemical storage in the battery. On top of that there is substantial cost, space and weight that must be dedicated to a large battery bank.
- Technically there is the 3rd option of pure electric (no generator), but that's not even worth discussing if you want even the slightest pretense at having similar capabilities.

9. EP
electrical system complexity. Really?? Are you really going to advocate a diesel engine + a generator to recharge is any less complex?? (alternators, dual alternator systems, inverters, converters, chargers, blah, blah blah). Point being, you as the owner decide the complexity of the system, that's not EP's fault....it's the owner's fault.

I thought you said, every true cruiser has a generator. Why would they have dual alternators, inverters converters, blah, blah, blah (as you put it) if they have a generator?

Then again, where were people saying they were too complicated? They are a different kind of complicated but not necessarily worse.


"I thought...". Perhaps that's your problem right there. First, I didn't quantify them as "true cruisers." Your words, not mine. At this point, it's pretty clear you're arguments are becoming desperate to the point of putting words in my mouth. Many, many cruisers use dual alternators on their engines...or have you decided to ignore those discussions. Apparently, you've also missed the entire boards dedicated to servicing diesel engines. Conveniently forgotten? I think so! Debate until you're blue in the face. No one is going to agree servicing two diesel's is easier than servicing one. 'nuff said.

No desperation. If we use a scenario where you have say a 35' boat with no generator and a 30hp conventional drivetrain, the diesel/electric drivetrain is more complicated as you have additional components to keep track of and maintain (do you really think a generator doesn't need maintenance?). Plus a 30hp equivalent generator will be massively overpowered for house loads on a typical 35' cruising boat.

10. Single point of failure. I got a kick out of this one. What do you do when your diesel engine fails? You fix it. I fail to see why this is an argument exclusive to EP. In fact, electric motors have a MUCH HIGHER life cycle. I'd be willing to bet even a
novice EP user can switch out a controller faster than you can change out the starter or a fuel pump.

The motor may or may not have a higher life living down in a wet corrosive bilge. I certainly wouldn't buy low volume specialty electronics that control that electric motor are more reliable.

Ok, so you agree a proper marine-ized motor can have a lifecycle that exceeds diesel. Thanks. Hope that didn't hurt too much. Again, how does purchasing cheap only apply to hybrid? lol

No, go back and reread my response. At best it's a wash.

If both generator and propulsion diesels are marinized, they should have about the same lifespan. The actual electric components of the generator typically don't like to live in a salty wet bilge. Likewise the electric propulsion motors don't like that either. The electronic controls definitely don't like the marine environment and will suffer compared to the diesel engine electrical components that have benefited from decades of work and modification to address issues.

11. Prop drag. Another funny one. You can put the EP in
gear just enough to minimize all prop drag at the most negligible amounts of draw. Voila! Zero drag.

I don't think prop drag is a big issue but are you saying you are going to leave the generator running all the time just to keep the prop at zero drag? You said, we would just use our generator and not the battery bank.

Did I say anything about involving the generator in this point? Nope. Did I say I would exclusively use the generator in any points above? Nope. Seriously, dude. Do you have conversations with yourself. Now it's getting a little scary. Never said either. You turn the EP motor on and utilize enough amperage to negate all drag. It's a de minimus amount of draw from the batteries. Drag is an important consideration if you plan to size your propeller for sufficient regen which usually means not folding and larger in size vs what you may have on your boat currently.

So where is the power to spin the prop coming from? If you are running a pure diesel/electric, you need the generator running.

If drag is really a concern, just get a folding prop and it's irrelevant.


12. Some ancillary benefits. A cleaner bilge is nice.

I don't have a dirty bilge. Also if you have propulsion diesel that is leaking fluids, you could just as easily have a generator diesel leaking fluids.


Lucky you! You're the one! Why?... because you regularly clean it. I'd rather have an electric motor that doesn't make the mess to begin with. True. The generator could leak. But if you're used to having a diesel engine and a diesel gen, I've just cut the clean up in half.

Wait, are you suggesting a generator or not for a conventional boat? You keep flipping back and forth depending on what your point is.

If the motor is leaking fluids, the answer is to repair it. Doesn't matter if it's propulsion or generator.

Look, if you have a nice boat w/ a couple good working diesel engines, I agree, it's a very expensive proposition switching to EP. If you don't have the nicest boat, there are plenty who are starting to replace diesel w/ EP as DIY projects and it's a VERY inexpensive proposition vs an engine
rebuild. If you're lucky enough to be starting from scratch, I wouldn't think twice. Without hesitation, I'd go EP on a new boat. Do it right and it works very well. Do it wrong and well, it doesn't matter what your talking about when it comes to cruising. It's guaranteed to be a nightmare.

The only way it comes out cheaper is if you accept drastic reductions in capabilities. Also, rebuilding a diesel isn't too expensive if you do it yourself. A cruiser who can DIY an electric drivetrain including the installation of a diesel generator is likely to have the skill set to rebuild a diesel drivetrain.

LOL. Well, as long as you think so. I've just put to rest EVERY single false argument you raised. Since you're the research buff, go check out the success rate on re-build's for cruisers and see how long they tend to last. Perhaps try Morgan's Cloud. PS-the earth isn't flat either.

And I've woken up every one of the items you supposedly "put to rest"

PSea

ps - if Octopus is still following this thread, I'd love to know what they'd do differently in hindsight. I've found your posts very enlightening.

They "naysayers" have been saying all along, you can build a functional electric powered boat. I don't recall anyone saying it can't be done. The problem is cost, size and capability. One or more of those must be sacrificed in order to do it. There is no magic way around it and that explains why mass production cruising boats aren't being built with electric propulsion. Those who are doing the conversion have made the choice for one reason or another and they are ready to make major sacrifices to get it.

Cost? What does an equivalent EP motor cost? What does the controller cost? What does 48ahr bank cost/weigh? What does the added maintenance cost? What's your time worth?

Only works if you use Magic EP HP.

The problem isn't cost, size or capability. It's your lack of attention to details, generalizations and a simple unwillingness to expand your understanding.

Please share your understanding so I can learn. So far you haven't provided any details to counter my statements.

PSea

The idea of a simply pushing a leaver forward and having thrust sounds really great. I would love it if electric power was viable on a typical cruising boat.

But the point still stands that it's not viable unless you accept substantial reduction in capability. For some, that reduction is acceptable but when you see manufacturers spec'ing, "2 powerful motors" instead of actual HP tells me it's more marketing than fact.
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Old 16-08-2016, 07:07   #115
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Re: Lagoon 420 hybrid + modern tech

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Originally Posted by PSea View Post
Here we agree. These companies don't advance EP. It just advances their company. Your previous post is hogwash. You just don't want to accept the truth.
They don't give specifications because it would be obvious they can't live up to the hype. By giving vague statements, the believers in "the truth" can continue to believe and not be bothered by physics.
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Old 16-08-2016, 07:22   #116
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Re: Lagoon 420 hybrid + modern tech

There are places outside of cruising boats where a hybrid system makes a lot of sense. It's very similar to the reason hybrid cars do very well in stop & go traffic.


If you are running a water taxi or a ferry that does a short run back and forth across a river, hybrid can make a lot of sense.
- In both scenarios, acceleration and deceleration is valuable as they dock dozens if not hundreds of times per day. If they can reliably shave a couple minutes off a round trip by accelerating quickly and braking later, they might be able to do an additional couple of runs per day with the profit that comes with that.
- They may be able to downsize the diesel engine significantly. On these types of boats, the driving force for HP, is acceleration and deceleration not cruising speed (like on a cruising boat). If a ferry can drop from say 1000hp of diesel engines (that may only be putting out 300hp as you first take off) to maybe 200hp of diesel engines and a moderate battery bank that can boost the electric motors for just a couple of minutes while the 200hp diesel is already spun up and putting out 80-90% of it's rated power, that's likely to be a much cheaper installation. While you are loading and unloading the cars, the 200hp diesel recharges the battery bank and then the battery bank provides the surge to get the ferry up to speed and a boost to help decelerate.


This is a scenario where the instant torque of electric motors allows you to use substantially smaller electric motors. It's a much different scenario from a cruising sailboat.
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Old 16-08-2016, 14:59   #117
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Re: Lagoon 420 hybrid + modern tech

I have zero interest in talking to a wall. I've provided the limitations, the advantages and the drawbacks while also addressing unsubstantiated claims. Feel free to search for reasons why one poor application extrapolates to all applications. The rest of us will continue to look for all answers, not just the answers that fit our (your) preconceived misconceptions.




Ignorance is never an excuse.
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Old 16-08-2016, 17:59   #118
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Re: Lagoon 420 hybrid + modern tech

You'll pretty much find the same arguments and limitations with the public acceptance of electric vehicles, the bottle neck is energy supply/storage. The energy densities of liquid fuels is yet to be matched by batteries. Unless battery technology makes a sudden leap in capacity the future perhaps is fuel cells.
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Old 17-08-2016, 04:48   #119
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Re: Lagoon 420 hybrid + modern tech

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You'll pretty much find the same arguments and limitations with the public acceptance of electric vehicles, the bottle neck is energy supply/storage. The energy densities of liquid fuels is yet to be matched by batteries. Unless battery technology makes a sudden leap in capacity the future perhaps is fuel cells.
Electric vehicles actually do not have two of the biggest drawbacks because of the typical use case:
- HP requirements to keep a small car at freeway speeds are pretty low (around 40-60hp). The thing that drives even the smallest cars to have 100+hp engines is the need for low end torque which provides peppy acceleration from a standstill. This is a case where the electric motors ability to provide maximum torque from zero RPM allows you to downsize the engine.
- Electric cars are well suited to commuting which is one of the most common uses. Most peoples commutes are under 50miles round trip. For your typical family with 2 cars, changing out one for electric makes a lot of sense.

This is drastically different from the typical use case of a cruising boat where owners want the ability to run at 80-90% of hull speed for several hours and they don't really care much about acceleration.

What baffles me is why auto manufacturers haven't realized this key difference and started selling cheap small electric cars with 70-100mile range. What drives the price of electric cars thru the roof is trying to ask too much of the technology in terms of range. This forces them to use giant expensive battery packs, regenerative braking and a host of other features to try and match a technology they have no hope of matching.
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Old 17-08-2016, 04:57   #120
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Re: Lagoon 420 hybrid + modern tech

Quote:
Originally Posted by PSea View Post
I have zero interest in talking to a wall. I've provided the limitations, the advantages and the drawbacks while also addressing unsubstantiated claims. Feel free to search for reasons why one poor application extrapolates to all applications. The rest of us will continue to look for all answers, not just the answers that fit our (your) preconceived misconceptions.




Ignorance is never an excuse.
I understand. Design and physics can be like talking to a wall. No matter how hard you want to believe, physics sticks to her rules.

When you settle down, come up with what you think is a viable use case and we can discuss it.
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