Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 31-05-2016, 23:18   #46
Senior Cruiser
 
StuM's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Port Moresby,Papua New Guinea
Boat: FP Belize Maestro 43
Posts: 5,063
Re: Lagoon 420 hybrid + modern tech

Quote:
Originally Posted by fabgo View Post
Thank you Chris for your review. I wonder why hybrid electric systems are not more popular. It seems an ideal system for a sailboat.

Like you said, electric motors are much more reliable and require much less maintenance. The generator can operate very efficiently and also provides power for the rest of the boat.

Solar panels can provide enough power to run the motors for short periods such as docking.

The only downside I can see is that the techology is not as proven as diesel engines.

So why is it not more broadly in use? What am I missing.

- Fabian
Post #43!
__________________

__________________
StuM is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2016, 01:37   #47
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Winter Germany, Summer Med
Boat: Lagoon 380 S2
Posts: 827
Re: Lagoon 420 hybrid + modern tech

Quote:
Originally Posted by fabgo View Post
Thank you Chris for your review. I wonder why hybrid electric systems are not more popular. It seems an ideal system for a sailboat.

Like you said, electric motors are much more reliable and require much less maintenance. The generator can operate very efficiently and also provides power for the rest of the boat.

Solar panels can provide enough power to run the motors for short periods such as docking.

The only downside I can see is that the techology is not as proven as diesel engines.

So why is it not more broadly in use? What am I missing.

- Fabian
Even my small 36ft cat has two 14kW engines. It has some losses for the saildrive, so maybe each produces 10kW at the props.
To replace that i would need a 20+ kW generator to produce 2x 10kW at the props.

To give any electric cruising range the battery bank needs to be huge. And then there would be big wires, big throttle electronics, big charging electronics. If any of these things go wrong (and the marine climate is paricularly harsh for electronics and wires / connectors) the 100s of Amps can easily start fires.
And all these complicated gadgets can only be repaired by the manufacturer. Breakdown in Galapagos? Fly in the expert and DHL all parts required.
__________________

__________________
rabbi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2016, 05:21   #48
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Somewhere
Boat: Boatless
Posts: 1,078
Re: Lagoon 420 hybrid + modern tech

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
So far it still isn't practical to run an AC from solar/batteries which draws a fraction of the power that propulsion does on a 40' Cat.
Not anymore. Earlier this year I enjoyed more than one air-conditioned siesta thanks to the 1.5 kW solar farm and lithium batteries in another CF member's boat.


Sent from my SM-G9287 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
svlamorocha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2016, 07:34   #49
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: France, Cuban coast in winter 2015-2016
Boat: Catamaran PRIVILEGE 435
Posts: 43
Re: Lagoon 420 hybrid + modern tech

Originally Posted by svlamorocha
... Earlier this year I enjoyed more than one air-conditioned siesta thanks to the 1.5 kW solar farm and lithium batteries in another CF member's boat.

What was the area of this 1.5KW solar farm ?
__________________
Beyond our expensive yachts and powerfull tenders, beyond the beach front bar, live the real inhabitants of the land we mean to visit.....
GALAWA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2016, 15:44   #50
Senior Cruiser
 
44'cruisingcat's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,488
Images: 69
Re: Lagoon 420 hybrid + modern tech

Quote:
Originally Posted by fabgo View Post
Thank you Chris for your review. I wonder why hybrid electric systems are not more popular. It seems an ideal system for a sailboat.

Like you said, electric motors are much more reliable and require much less maintenance. The generator can operate very efficiently and also provides power for the rest of the boat.

Solar panels can provide enough power to run the motors for short periods such as docking.

The only downside I can see is that the techology is not as proven as diesel engines.

So why is it not more broadly in use? What am I missing.

- Fabian
The cost/benefit ratio.

Costs:

You need two electric motors of similar power to the diesels they replace. The speed controllers for these will be quite costly.

You need a very large battery bank. Preferably lithiums.

You need a genset which produces enough power to run both electric motors continuously.

This all costs much more than a pair of diesels.

While electric motors are very reliable, all the other equipment may not be.

All this added weight will reduce the sailing efficiency of the boat. Which may effectively neutralise the only real benefit.

Benefit:

It might be slightly more fuel efficient.
__________________
"You CANNOT be serious!"


John McEnroe
44'cruisingcat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2016, 15:52   #51
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: San Diego, CA
Boat: Beneteau First 40.7
Posts: 209
Re: Lagoon 420 hybrid + modern tech

Quote:
Originally Posted by GALAWA View Post
What was the area of this 1.5KW solar farm ?
Well, Sunpower x22 panels are 360 watts so 5 of them = 1800 watts. Each panel is 61.3 x 41.2 inches. 5 of them down the back of a decent size cat would be no problem, and would be 61.3 x 206 inches (1558 x 5230 mm) or 8.15 sq meter. Call it 8.5 sq meter with frames and air gaps. That would make a nice cockpit cover extender over the dinghy on, say, a Lagoon 450.

BTW, that gets you around 9-10 kw per day on average, which should emphasize the losing battle you'd have against general use electric motors on a sailboat. Used just for docking, sure it would work, but try motoring anywhere.
__________________
gjorgensen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2016, 19:41   #52
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 45
Re: Lagoon 420 hybrid + modern tech

Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
The cost/benefit ratio.

Costs:

You need two electric motors of similar power to the diesels they replace. The speed controllers for these will be quite costly.

You need a very large battery bank. Preferably lithiums.

You need a genset which produces enough power to run both electric motors continuously.

This all costs much more than a pair of diesels.

While electric motors are very reliable, all the other equipment may not be.

All this added weight will reduce the sailing efficiency of the boat. Which may effectively neutralise the only real benefit.

Benefit:

It might be slightly more fuel efficient.
I looked into this actually and found costs to be comparable to diesels. Initial costs were slightly higher, but it does include a battery bank and a generator you may otherwise have to acquire separately. Also, when I did the research I found that the total weight was less than the weight of two diesel engines.

I have also spoken to some owners of hybrid electric systems, and they all claimed the solution was very reliable.

The main drawback I can see actually is the resell value, as a lot people are skeptical, and prefer diesel engines.

And I agree reliability is a risk, as the systems are not as proven.

- Fabian
__________________
fabgo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2016, 20:08   #53
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: May 2012
Location: New Orleans
Boat: We have a problem... A serious addiction issue.
Posts: 3,369
Re: Lagoon 420 hybrid + modern tech

Fabgo,

You won't be using the same size generator for propulsion and for house loads. You will need two generators. A 60-80kw (assuming a 40' cat) for propulsion and then a 8ish kW for house loads. You could probably get away with twin 40kw DC generators for propulsion and a 8kw AC generator for house loads or some mix and match adding up to 60-80 kW.

The reality is that it just doesn't work. If you want enough grunt to motor into a storm when dragging anchor, or motor long distances, you pretty much need diesel propulsion. Either you use a mechanical transmission, or you use an electrical transmission, but either way you need a big diesel moving the boat.
__________________
Greg

- If animals weren't meant to be eaten then they wouldn't be made of food.
Stumble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2016, 21:12   #54
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: San Diego, CA
Boat: Beneteau First 40.7
Posts: 209
Re: Lagoon 420 hybrid + modern tech

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
Fabgo,

You won't be using the same size generator for propulsion and for house loads. You will need two generators. A 60-80kw (assuming a 40' cat) for propulsion and then a 8ish kW for house loads. You could probably get away with twin 40kw DC generators for propulsion and a 8kw AC generator for house loads or some mix and match adding up to 60-80 kW.

The reality is that it just doesn't work. If you want enough grunt to motor into a storm when dragging anchor, or motor long distances, you pretty much need diesel propulsion. Either you use a mechanical transmission, or you use an electrical transmission, but either way you need a big diesel moving the boat.
Yup. Also remember you need independent house and propulsion battery banks typically. Even the two 8kw (10 HP at the shaft) motors the Lagoon 420 had would draw close to 700 amps EACH at 12 V. So instead you have a high voltage battery pack (e.g. 96 V) to feed the motors. You could use a DC-DC converter for house loads but given the range of the battery packs is only on the order of 20-40 miles as is, you wouldn't want to eat into that for house consumption. And the independent banks means 2 independent charging systems....
__________________
gjorgensen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2016, 22:12   #55
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Mooloolaba
Boat: Helia 44
Posts: 444
Re: Lagoon 420 hybrid + modern tech

This discussion always comes down to the use of the boat. If you want to putt putt out from the marina in flat water and then sail around and then come back again then there is no problems with electrics.

If you want to passage with your boat then I would not venture out without enough capacity to operate both motors strongly into big seas and a large headwind for 4 hours minimum and I would want to operate at least one motor for 48 hours constant. The power delivery requirements are way beyond what any practical electrical or hybrid system can deliver.

So you will always get people who will state they are quite happy with an electrical/hybrid system but then ask them when they last did a passage of 500nm+ in tough conditions and nobody would dream of attempting such a feat with an electrical boat (notwithstanding the one off that have been specially built for the purpose).
__________________
cwjohm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2016, 23:17   #56
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 4,011
Re: Lagoon 420 hybrid + modern tech

Quote:
Originally Posted by ranchero76 View Post
Here we go again
Let's repeat - hybrid+solar will not replace or eliminate engines.
But:
1.About 70% of engine wear accrues at start-up (no, it's not joke). So every time you start engine for short run, you basically kill it. Electric motor will eliminate short engine runs, drastically prolonging their life.
2. Even kids know that any engine most sufficient on high RPM, high power. That's when they should be used. For anything else - there are electric motors, which have close to 100% efficiency on any RPM and load.
3. Sail boats created for sailing. Motoring is intermittent every now and then. So in many cases there should be enough time in between for battery re-charging.
4. Good power setup (say 20-30 kWh battery bank and at least 2-3kW solar panels) is something that any modern big boat should have regardless of having electric propulsion. There are lots of power hungry toys, they all need power. While these batteries and panels still not cheap, they becoming more affordable. So most parts for hybrid is ALREADY THERE, just install electric motors end enjoy
1. The vast majority of marine engines die from abuse and lack of maintenance. Wearing out is just not an issue.
2. When you account for conversion losses, diesel-electric isn't gaining you anything.
3. For purists. For normal people, they want the ability to motor when they choose.
4. We have nothing close to that. 130w solar and a single deep cycle battery, no shore charging... never been an issue. Not to mention, by the time you buy the system you propose, you could just buy a generator and fuel for the next 10yrs.

To the original question: Run the math for a 50mile run at 7kts. It becomes obvious very quickly why it failed.
__________________
valhalla360 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2016, 23:18   #57
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2013
Posts: 4,011
Re: Lagoon 420 hybrid + modern tech

Quote:
Originally Posted by SDChristian View Post
Another way of stating this is, how far would a tesla go with a generator in the trunk and a full tank of gas? Answer: a long way
Sure, but get rid of the electric motors and giant battery pack and it would go even further.
__________________
valhalla360 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2016, 23:32   #58
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 256
Re: Lagoon 420 hybrid + modern tech

Quote:
Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
4. We have nothing close to that. 130w solar and a single deep cycle battery, no shore charging... never been an issue. Not to mention, by the time you buy the system you propose, you could just buy a generator and fuel for the next 10yrs.
You see, I'm talking about newer boats, when +/ $30-40k to the price is not a big deal. And in this case I see advantages of having hybrid and powerful solar/battery. I'd rather spend money once and then have free power for everything on boat and free, silent maneuring/short runs. As we discussed before - say I spend a month on remote island and spend zero $ on charging batteries, cooking, scuba compressor, AC, fridge, freezer, and everything else on boat, including boat moving here and there. Nice.
__________________
ranchero76 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-06-2016, 23:46   #59
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Mooloolaba
Boat: Helia 44
Posts: 444
Re: Lagoon 420 hybrid + modern tech

Quote:
You see, I'm talking about newer boats, when +/ $30-40k to the price is not a big deal. And in this case I see advantages of having hybrid and powerful solar/battery. I'd rather spend money once and then have free power for everything on boat and free, silent maneuring/short runs. As we discussed before - say I spend a month on remote island and spend zero $ on charging batteries, cooking, scuba compressor, AC, fridge, freezer, and everything else on boat, including boat moving here and there. Nice.
You are talking a requirement of up to 240KW emergency and 800Kw long term motoring provision, so you would need to spend at least $100K and require carrying capacity of a couple of metric tons in terms of batteries and generator.

Sure, $30-$40K will allow you to spend a month at an island fully covered but you will need a big boat with large diesels to tow you to that island and back again.
__________________
cwjohm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2016, 00:23   #60
Senior Cruiser
 
44'cruisingcat's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,488
Images: 69
Re: Lagoon 420 hybrid + modern tech

Quote:
Originally Posted by ranchero76 View Post
You see, I'm talking about newer boats, when +/ $30-40k to the price is not a big deal. And in this case I see advantages of having hybrid and powerful solar/battery. I'd rather spend money once and then have free power for everything on boat and free, silent maneuring/short runs. As we discussed before - say I spend a month on remote island and spend zero $ on charging batteries, cooking, scuba compressor, AC, fridge, freezer, and everything else on boat, including boat moving here and there. Nice.
Running all that stuff on solar will require a huge solar array and a LOT of sunshine.
__________________

__________________
"You CANNOT be serious!"


John McEnroe
44'cruisingcat is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
lagoon, lagoon 420

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
420: Lagoon 420 Owners & Fans ess105 Lagoon Catamarans 1141 02-11-2016 00:35
42: Lagoon 42 - NOT 420 ireaney Lagoon Catamarans 38 23-05-2015 13:38
421: Upcoming improvements in the Lagoon Hybrid systems? ArtM Lagoon Catamarans 3 20-06-2012 08:40
For Sale: '07 Lagoon 420 Hybrid Catamaran 250,000 Octopus Classifieds Archive 9 08-11-2009 09:03


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:17.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.