Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 13-06-2016, 16:05   #61
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Liveaboard cruiser. Home port Brisbane, Queensland, Australia
Boat: Lagoon 400
Posts: 823
Re: Lagoon 400 Bulkhead an issue?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailnow2011 View Post
Guess what, if there are a bunch of people who hate lagoons, and find them to be a bad design, then be wary. No other brand of cat or mono outside this one company (jeaneeau) has more people thinking they are junk, worthless, or unsafe. Sure, many are floating. What that means is they are floating, not 10,000 are crossing oceans daily. A boat at a dock can be made of plywood, just look at flying Hawaiian. When they go to sea, in anything but nice conditions is when they start to see issues. As have been proven by the monos designed and built by the company, their boats DO sink.... or at least float upside down after a bad design in the keel lets go.

If people are hating a lagoon as much as they hate a CQR, there must be a reason.
At last, a post from the anti-Lagoon "marine surveyor"!

Once again he shows his ignorance and provides more misinformation. Lagoon catamarans are manufactured by CNB (Beneteau ) not Jeanneau or jeaneeau, as you say. So, any connection with real or perceived Jeanneau mono-hull issues simply does not exist. Totally different company. It's nice to know the keels on my Lagoon won't break off, causing it to flip.

"Hate" is strong and emotive language for a boat. Even for people. All boats are a compromise, and some are better than others for a particular purpose, but if you find you are having such strong emotions about a particular brand; its not healthy.
__________________

__________________
tuskie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-06-2016, 16:15   #62
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Liveaboard cruiser. Home port Brisbane, Queensland, Australia
Boat: Lagoon 400
Posts: 823
Re: Lagoon 400 Bulkhead an issue?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailnow2011 View Post
If people are hating a lagoon as much as they hate a CQR, there must be a reason.
That's an absolute classic! LOL. Who could hate an anchor?
__________________

__________________
tuskie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2016, 00:59   #63
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Sydney
Boat: Lagoon 400
Posts: 1,103
Re: Lagoon 400 Bulkhead an issue?

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
I would not be so hard on Lagoons. The company is offering a product that buyers want and they have been very successful doing just that. A large percentage of their yachts are built for the charter market and fill that need very well. Look they are not racing machines, quite the opposite but they provide huge space for their length and are extremely comfortable at anchor or the dock. They were not designed as offshore passage makers but many cruisers have crossed oceans in them in the low latitudes with few problems. Keep in mind, these are not top of the line cats, they are built to a budget but they seem to get the job done.
Lagoons are built well. The fact that boat can twist harmoniously in heavy weather, makes it more seaworthy and not less. I have no reason to believe otherwise. Fixing nacelle problem with some structural bulkhead that will not give in real bad stuff may cause structural damage. Definitely one should not ignore boat design philosophy and consult lagoon.

Have tested sporty cat with lots of sails and clean bottom, yet could not make it to 10 kn in 24 kn true beam reaching & full sails and boards up and even average mono left us behind.

Skipper trying to show off with the boat become really quiet. He had ocean passages behind him, racing monos, so sure was not beginner.

The problem was that the boat was fully loaded.

Look at this L 400 and what is on board.

https://youtu.be/TdQtAige3Zk

And boat still goes relatively fine skipper claims. Likely outperforming sporty cat with same weight of 'necessities' on any point of sail.

Lagoons are also made for charter and come with fixed props to slow down and encourage motoring. White sails are rather small so charterers cant do too much damage. To get full spectre of performance code 0 or/and similar required & folding props. I do not see other charter related design.
__________________
arsenelupiga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2016, 01:34   #64
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Sydney
Boat: Lagoon 400
Posts: 1,103
Re: Lagoon 400 Bulkhead an issue?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tuskie View Post
Thanks Arsenelupiga,

Very informative and well explained. There has been more BS, biased crap and misinformation about Lagoon bulkheads on this forum than any other topic. Except anchors!
All from "experts" who know more about catamaran design and construction than Van Peteghem Lauriot-Prévost (VPLP), the Lagoon designers. It's a wonder these geniuses haven't been snapped up by leading naval architecture companies to design cutting edge multihulls while they still know everything.

Maybe they are just ignorant w__kers?
vplp guys are not just racers but know how to enjoy life as well. Can tell based on design and how they piss people off with design. Rare combination. I enjoyed my research, it is good exercise, so happy to share what i learned.

And want to be safe as well, so getting to know boat better and do what is necessary if there is an issue and get rid of rosy glasses.

One thing that crossed my mind is : do not ignore change in rig tension as something is likely needing attention asap.
__________________
arsenelupiga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2016, 01:53   #65
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Melbourne Australia
Boat: Lagoon 400
Posts: 327
Re: Lagoon 400 Bulkhead an issue?

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
I would not be so hard on Lagoons. The company is offering a product that buyers want and they have been very successful doing just that. A large percentage of their yachts are built for the charter market and fill that need very well. Look they are not racing machines, quite the opposite but they provide huge space for their length and are extremely comfortable at anchor or the dock. They were not designed as offshore passage makers but many cruisers have crossed oceans in them in the low latitudes with few problems. Keep in mind, these are not top of the line cats, they are built to a budget but they seem to get the job done.
So that begs the question who makes a top of the line cat? I always thought Gunboat was, does a perceived top of the line brand mean it is trouble free? I doubt it.
__________________
peterp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2016, 05:39   #66
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,963
Re: Lagoon 400 Bulkhead an issue?

Quote:
Originally Posted by peterp View Post
So that begs the question who makes a top of the line cat? I always thought Gunboat was, does a perceived top of the line brand mean it is trouble free? I doubt it.
Well we certainly know we can't buy the best products at the lowest price, right? So I guess you do your homework. If you can only afford the least expensive product then just accept that and make do, just don't convince yourself that you are getting more than you are paying for because that's not the way the real world goes around.
As to trouble free, well that's an entirely different question although it shouldn't be. If you have a superior design, built to a high level of fit and finish using the highest quality of materials then it should be trouble free longer because it's built better. To test this out go back 40 years and take a boat like say a Trintella and compare it to a Catalina and see how they both look today. I only use that as an example because I was eyeballing a 40 foot Trintella from 1972 just yesterday and it was aging beautifully. I dare say that this boat will be ageless while many older Cats are ready for the junk bin. It was like looking at an old Swan that had been well kept, really beautiful pieces of workmanship.
__________________
robert sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2016, 06:04   #67
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 31,592
Images: 240
Re: Lagoon 400 Bulkhead an issue?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tuskie View Post
At last, a post from the anti-Lagoon "marine surveyor"!

Lagoon catamarans are manufactured by CNB (Beneteau ) not Jeanneau ... ... Totally different company ...
Group Beneteau manufactures CNB, Lagoon, Jeanneau, Beneteau, & many more.
https://www.sgb-finance.com/beneteau-group.aspx

https://www.beneteau-group.com/en/sa...ers/55-83.html
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2016, 06:12   #68
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Sydney
Boat: Lagoon 400
Posts: 1,103
Re: Lagoon 400 Bulkhead an issue?

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Well we certainly know we can't buy the best products at the lowest price, right? So I guess you do your homework. If you can only afford the least expensive product then just accept that and make do, just don't convince yourself that you are getting more than you are paying for because that's not the way the real world goes around.
As to trouble free, well that's an entirely different question although it shouldn't be. If you have a superior design, built to a high level of fit and finish using the highest quality of materials then it should be trouble free longer because it's built better. To test this out go back 40 years and take a boat like say a Trintella and compare it to a Catalina and see how they both look today. I only use that as an example because I was eyeballing a 40 foot Trintella from 1972 just yesterday and it was aging beautifully. I dare say that this boat will be ageless while many older Cats are ready for the junk bin. It was like looking at an old Swan that had been well kept, really beautiful pieces of workmanship.

lagoons depreciate the least on used cat market and sell fastest.

Is it possible they are good value for money, relatively for cat ?

Let not bring into comparison monohulls, as we all know second hand market sucks big time.
__________________
arsenelupiga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2016, 06:27   #69
Marine Service Provider
 
Factor's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Brisbane Australia
Boat: Corsair Dash MKII
Posts: 4,086
Re: Lagoon 400 Bulkhead an issue?

Quote:
Originally Posted by arsenelupiga View Post
lagoons depreciate the least on used cat market and sell fastest.
You know this how?
__________________
Factor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2016, 07:01   #70
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,963
Re: Lagoon 400 Bulkhead an issue?

Quote:
Originally Posted by arsenelupiga View Post
lagoons depreciate the least on used cat market and sell fastest.

Is it possible they are good value for money, relatively for cat ?

Let not bring into comparison monohulls, as we all know second hand market sucks big time.
First of all I agree that Lagoons like their builder Beneteau are good value for the dollar paid.
I'm not as tapped into the resale market but from what I see they depreciate at normal rates and maybe a bit higher than others due to the large numbers in the charter market and the large numberserk in the used market place.
From all my cat friends the Lagoons appeal to the first time users and folks that are less likely to be doing major passages as their sailing qualities are not their greatest asset.
No one can argue with their market success so they know who their buyers are and they know what they want and what they will pay for, got to give them a gold smiley face!!
__________________
robert sailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2016, 07:34   #71
smj
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2007
Boat: Searunner 38 catamaran
Posts: 3,654
Re: Lagoon 400 Bulkhead an issue?

Quote:
Originally Posted by arsenelupiga View Post
from post of someone more knowledgable, one can conclude that these bulkheads are not structural.

I am not marine expert but only good at physics:

Lagoon is ~ 2 T heavier than comparable other brands cat. Yes thats bad but must be good for something:

Lagoon is strong enough without bulkheads, unlike other boats of similar size that need bulkheads because they are lightly built and this is where your frustration is coming from.

User experiences dictated that approach, would be my wild guess.
Please, show me some proof that Lagoon or the designers would stand behind your statement that Lagoons are strong enough without bulkheads. Or better yet, pull all the bulkheads out of your Lagoon, go sailing then report back on how tight your shrouds were during the sail.
__________________
smj is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2016, 11:24   #72
Registered User
 
Catalysis's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: California
Boat: St Francis 50
Posts: 275
Re: Lagoon 400 Bulkhead an issue?

Boats don't have exoskeletons - can't see a broad beamed cat not flexing when the mast is under stress ?
Transverse beam or other internal stiffening structure needed imho.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________
Catalysis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2016, 11:26   #73
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Sydney
Boat: Lagoon 400
Posts: 1,103
Re: Lagoon 400 Bulkhead an issue?

Quote:
Originally Posted by smj View Post
Please, show me some proof that Lagoon or the designers would stand behind your statement that Lagoons are strong enough without bulkheads. Or better yet, pull all the bulkheads out of your Lagoon, go sailing then report back on how tight your shrouds were during the sail.
i cant show you that. It is my best guess after looking in how boat is built. 2 tunnels have reinforcements (metal?) that can be seen from inside. Nacelle and bridgedeck has serious fiberglass thickness in places I was able to check. Risking to be accused of bias will say it anyway - boat appears built structurally very well and this is the reason for extra weight.

Was hoping someone will challenge my conclusion with some facts, but all quiet.
__________________
arsenelupiga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2016, 11:27   #74
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Sydney
Boat: Lagoon 400
Posts: 1,103
Re: Lagoon 400 Bulkhead an issue?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Factor View Post
You know this how?
trying to actually buy cat.
__________________
arsenelupiga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-06-2016, 11:32   #75
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Sydney
Boat: Lagoon 400
Posts: 1,103
Re: Lagoon 400 Bulkhead an issue?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catalysis View Post
Boats don't have exoskeletons - can't see a broad beamed cat not flexing when the mast is under stress ?
Transverse beam or other internal stiffening structure needed imho.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum
look at bridgedeck shape - nacelle front of bridgedeck - it is designed to play main bulkhead role with spare flex built in. Benefit is material is fiberglass, flexing more in line with other boat so max stresses in extreme situations lowered.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	pic1.jpg
Views:	67
Size:	300.4 KB
ID:	126163  
__________________

__________________
arsenelupiga is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
head, lagoon, lagoon 400

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
400: Lagoon 400 or 400 S2 Big Joe Bob Lagoon Catamarans 20 11-01-2015 14:12
For Sale: Brand New NAIS-400 AIS Transceiver - Class B & NSPL-400 mcerdos Classifieds Archive 2 15-12-2014 17:47



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:38.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.