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Old 09-09-2012, 20:00   #76
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Re: Jaguar 36 Stories ?

BelizeSailor, That's good news, Hope to visit soon!
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Old 09-09-2012, 20:02   #77
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Re: Jaguar 36 Stories ?

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Originally Posted by Notyet View Post
So, Belizesailor, you are saying that you actually do most of the tacking with your genoa? (I'm not a native English speaking dude, so not all the details of what you guys are saying are always clear to me )
A video would be good to bridge the language gap. I did write an article for ASA years ago about tacking cats which might help. I will see if I still have a copy and send it to you.

I have a similar issue when using Spanish -- Google Translate is pretty good in general, but probably not so good with sailing terms.

Not a "genoa" technically on these boats or most cats, but a "jib". Use the jib to initially drive you out of the tack and then sheet in the main. Tack the jib like on a monohull. Bring is across quickly and cleanly just as the boat goes head to wind and sheet it in tight. Only the main is handled slightly differently than on a mono.

FoxFire: you may find you get better windward performance as the winds pick up by pulling in a reef in the main. I usually pull in the first reef at about 20 knots apparent. With the huge mains on these boats, and many other cats, they also are significantly more difficult to handle at around 20 knots without a reef. IMHO large main sail driven sail plans are not ideal for cruising use, but it is rare to sea a modern production cat that does not use this sail plan.

Re engines: My W35 has Vovlo MD2020s (about 18 rated HP). These are adequate, but I would go for 30 if given the choice. Many sail boats, cat or mono, are a bit underpowered (IMHO), I think most manufacturer's go for hull speed in static conditions -- in the real world turly "static" conditions don't happen often. Sure is nice to have a little extra power when pushing into adverse conditions.
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Old 09-09-2012, 20:20   #78
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Re: Jaguar 36 Stories ?

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... I did write an article for ASA years ago about tacking cats which might help. I will see if I still have a copy and send it to you. ...
Found it. PM me your email address and I will send it to you (HTML format). It includes a diagram which may help with the language issue.
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Old 09-09-2012, 20:56   #79
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Re: Jaguar 36 Stories ?

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Found it. PM me your email address and I will send it to you (HTML format). It includes a diagram which may help with the language issue.
PM sent!
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Old 10-09-2012, 09:40   #80
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Re: Jaguar 36 Stories ?

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The only other small cruising cats I have spent any significant time sailing is an older Gemini and smaller Wharram cats (lots of time on larger cats though). The Gemini sailed surprisingly well. Enjoyed sailing the smaller Wharrams, but their windward and tacking ability was not so good (or maybe I just need more time to learn their characteristics). Lots of other small cat owners here (Seawind, Gemini, etc...) who can answer better about their cats.

A key concepts to be aware of in relation to tacking cats: "Tacking angle" is not the same as "sailing angle". Cats have wider tacking angles than monohulls -- 110 degrees +/- is pretty typical -- and this is typical of the W35/J36s too. Coming into a tack on a cat it is often useful to ease the main a bit as you go head to wind (depends upon the boat and conditions) so that it does not tend to "weathervane" the boat into the wind. Turn the boat through the wind, leave the main eased, build up boat speed (so that keels/dagger boards start to work more effectively) then sheet in the main and bring the boat up onto a closer sailing angle. For single handing, I have my autopilot's "auto tack" feature set to 110d. My W35 tacks easily through about 110 and sails close hauled at about 40/45, she will pinch to 30, but you lose a lot of boat speed. Being able to pinching to 30 is handy for maneuvering or motor sailing -- because when motor sailing at 30 I can start to get some drive from the sails.

Re wind speeds before motoring. Depends of course on the boat speed you want to maintain and point of sail. These are not performance boats so their light air performance is not spectacular (compared to something like my H33 for example), but they will sail comparably to other cruising cats/monos in light air. I used to sail my W35 through a crowded anchorage of charter and cruising boats on a regular basis -- in normal conditions the winds were usually less than 10 knots, and shifty, because the anchorage was in the lee of an island. We were not breaking any performance records, usually ghosting along at less than 5 knots, but she would maneuver just fine. When cruising I usually start thinking about starting an engine when we drop below 5 knots for any extended period of time. In calm sea state, with no adverse current, this is going to happen when wind speeds dip below 10 knots.
Thank you for your impressions. I spent some time on a newer Gemini and thought it sailed very well too. I'm not really interested in other cats as much as trying to understand some of the comments I've read here about the J36 and wondered what those sailing characteristics were based upon.

I too have sailed a variety of cats, mostly larger, and found the J36 to be the worst performing cat I've ever sailed. I did however think the interior use of space was well done. There are many, many things that I didn't like regarding the design including: location of fuel tank fills, location of cleats, etc. I don't know much about the W35 and have never set foot on one. Is it the same as a Jaguar?

To be fair, I've not spent much time on another 4 cabin, 2 head, 36' cat with a genset, AC, large fridge and freezer. Maybe all that "stuff" killed the potential sailing performance. Much of my sailing time is in 15-20kts of wind in 5-7' seas. There have been enough posters here that have had very different impressions it makes wonder if the boat I've been on was just too heavily loaded with goodies to get out of it's own way!!!
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Old 10-09-2012, 15:45   #81
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Re: Jaguar 36 Stories ?

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Originally Posted by Rubikoop View Post
Thank you for your impressions. I spent some time on a newer Gemini and thought it sailed very well too. I'm not really interested in other cats as much as trying to understand some of the comments I've read here about the J36 and wondered what those sailing characteristics were based upon.

I too have sailed a variety of cats, mostly larger, and found the J36 to be the worst performing cat I've ever sailed. I did however think the interior use of space was well done. There are many, many things that I didn't like regarding the design including: location of fuel tank fills, location of cleats, etc. I don't know much about the W35 and have never set foot on one. Is it the same as a Jaguar?

To be fair, I've not spent much time on another 4 cabin, 2 head, 36' cat with a genset, AC, large fridge and freezer. Maybe all that "stuff" killed the potential sailing performance. Much of my sailing time is in 15-20kts of wind in 5-7' seas. There have been enough posters here that have had very different impressions it makes wonder if the boat I've been on was just too heavily loaded with goodies to get out of it's own way!!!
The sailing characteristics of my Jaguar 36 are much the same as belizesailor but I typically let the jib backwind on tack and bring it over once the main is power up. The boat will sail 40° off the wind in 20 knots apparent pretty well, you need to boom it windward quite a bit and chinch down the mainsheet to tightening the leech as much as possible on the large main. I too effectively motorsail as close as 30° on one engine. I have the Volvo Penta MD2020s and they provide more than enough power while sipping .33 gal/hr. The Volvo S-120 saildrives have a tube that runs to bottom of the drive so you can change the oil topsides. I did change my props and increase the pitch 2 inches. The boat is so easy to sail I just can’t imagine what issues caused Rubikoop to proclaim it “the worst performing cat he’d ever sailed.” I’d be interested in specifically what they were. My cat is equipped with all those “goodies” as well and routinely leaves bigger cats on the horizon
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Old 10-09-2012, 16:49   #82
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Re: Jaguar 36 Stories ?

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Originally Posted by Rubikoop View Post
....
I too have sailed a variety of cats, mostly larger, and found the J36 to be the worst performing cat I've ever sailed. I did however think the interior use of space was well done. There are many, many things that I didn't like regarding the design including: location of fuel tank fills, location of cleats, etc. I don't know much about the W35 and have never set foot on one. Is it the same as a Jaguar?

To be fair, I've not spent much time on another 4 cabin, 2 head, 36' cat with a genset, AC, large fridge and freezer. Maybe all that "stuff" killed the potential sailing performance. Much of my sailing time is in 15-20kts of wind in 5-7' seas. There have been enough posters here that have had very different impressions it makes wonder if the boat I've been on was just too heavily loaded with goodies to get out of it's own way!!!
The Wildcat 35 (W35 in my short-hand) was the first in this series, there were a couple of generations of the W35, with variations in design and build, and then the J36. Essentially the J36 is just the last generation of this boat. They are very similar boats.

Re tanks and fill locations: Charter Cats seemed to change their mind on this about every other boat they built. I've been aboard about half-a-dozen other W35/J36s and every one has been different. Mine are centrally located, relative to the meta-center of the boat, in the forward nacelle area and under the main salon settee. All can be relatively easily removed from the boat if necessary, and all are nice simple regular rectangular shapes. So, I like my tank set-up. I have seen some others that were a bit goofy.

Weight of course kills multihull performance, and given their generous layout they do tend to get over loaded with stuff. My W35 I think is built a bit heavier than the design spec and is loaded with cruising stuff and systems. She was certainly quicker before we loaded her up. She's not a performance boat, but is reasonable in the context of a very comfortable, smaller, cruising cat. Behaves herself well under sail and has proven to be quite sea worthy.

I also puzzle over the dramatic differences in impressions of windward ability and speed of these boats, but don't know the answer as to why. Given Charter Cat's history of wildly variable quality of build maybe this contributed to wildly variable performance characteristics. But there are certainly those that have favorable reports too. I remember receiving an email from the Bumfuzzle crew, before they had their well publicized issues, and they were rejoicing about cruising across the Pacific at 10 knots. As you can see from posts here, there are also owners who are quite pleased -- AkMike's videos show pretty sporty performance for a small cruising cat. I've posted the summary of my actual electronically logged data from last season -- which shows reasonable performance for a smaller cruising cat sailed in cruising mode. I don't know the answer, but it would be interesting to go sail exactly the same boat that someone else thought sucked, and even more interesting if I could go sail it with them.

I have seen an increasing number of W35/J36s out cruising, and there are several here on the Rio Dulce now....maybe I need to start soliciting owners to help with some "research" sailing....

FireFox: Can I go for a sail with you when you get back?

I will take you for a sail on my Hobie 33 in exchange!
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Old 11-09-2012, 10:41   #83
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Re: Jaguar 36 Stories ?

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The boat is so easy to sail I just can’t imagine what issues caused Rubikoop to proclaim it “the worst performing cat he’d ever sailed.” I’d be interested in specifically what they were. My cat is equipped with all those “goodies” as well and routinely leaves bigger cats on the horizon [/COLOR]
I'm not sure what "easy to sail" has to do with performance. If a J36 is truly easy to sail, why the need to backwind the jib and/or ease the main to get it to come around? Of all the cats I've sailed on, the J36 was the worst performing of the bunch. Specifically, slowest on all points of sail, widest tacking angles and slowest to accelerate out of tacks or from a puff of wind. Bottom was clean, sailed like I sail other cats in typical local conditions. Maybe I should have used the word "poorest" instead of worst. It's not my intent to offend anybody. But for the sake of discussion, if I sailed on 20 different cats, one of them has to have the poorest performance, correct? That doesn't mean it's unacceptable or dangerous, just not as good as the next best one. Sailing performance is just one aspect of any boat.

My rudimentary understanding of the history of the brand is that the manufacturer has been in and out of business, or filed bankruptcy, a couple of times. If that is correct, it wouldn't seem too hard to imagine that there could be a large variation between vessels. Maybe the one I've been on has a different rig. Maybe the mast is shorter. Maybe the stub keels are full of lead from a frustrated SA monohull boat builder. Who knows? What I do know is that it is very slow under sail and everyone else that I know that has been on it has the same comment. Hearing akmike say that his boat sails wonderfully and is faster than larger cats makes me wonder why this one under-performs.
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Old 11-09-2012, 10:50   #84
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Re: Jaguar 36 Stories ?

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Hearing akmike say that his boat sails wonderfully and is faster than larger cats makes me wonder why this one under-performs.
I don't know much about cats yet, but if you see this video, it seems like it is sailing fairly well...

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Old 11-09-2012, 10:55   #85
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Re: Jaguar 36 Stories ?

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Originally Posted by belizesailor View Post
The Wildcat 35 (W35 in my short-hand) was the first in this series, there were a couple of generations of the W35, with variations in design and build, and then the J36. Essentially the J36 is just the last generation of this boat. They are very similar boats.

Re tanks and fill locations: Charter Cats seemed to change their mind on this about every other boat they built. I've been aboard about half-a-dozen other W35/J36s and every one has been different. Mine are centrally located, relative to the meta-center of the boat, in the forward nacelle area and under the main salon settee. All can be relatively easily removed from the boat if necessary, and all are nice simple regular rectangular shapes. So, I like my tank set-up. I have seen some others that were a bit goofy.

Weight of course kills multihull performance, and given their generous layout they do tend to get over loaded with stuff. My W35 I think is built a bit heavier than the design spec and is loaded with cruising stuff and systems. She was certainly quicker before we loaded her up. She's not a performance boat, but is reasonable in the context of a very comfortable, smaller, cruising cat. Behaves herself well under sail and has proven to be quite sea worthy.

I also puzzle over the dramatic differences in impressions of windward ability and speed of these boats, but don't know the answer as to why. Given Charter Cat's history of wildly variable quality of build maybe this contributed to wildly variable performance characteristics. But there are certainly those that have favorable reports too. I remember receiving an email from the Bumfuzzle crew, before they had their well publicized issues, and they were rejoicing about cruising across the Pacific at 10 knots. As you can see from posts here, there are also owners who are quite pleased -- AkMike's videos show pretty sporty performance for a small cruising cat. I've posted the summary of my actual electronically logged data from last season -- which shows reasonable performance for a smaller cruising cat sailed in cruising mode. I don't know the answer, but it would be interesting to go sail exactly the same boat that someone else thought sucked, and even more interesting if I could go sail it with them.

I have seen an increasing number of W35/J36s out cruising, and there are several here on the Rio Dulce now....maybe I need to start soliciting owners to help with some "research" sailing....

FireFox: Can I go for a sail with you when you get back?

I will take you for a sail on my Hobie 33 in exchange!
Tanks and fill locations---I think your word "goofy" is appropriate. Fill locations and cleats are outboard and down from the top of the hulls. It's not much fun to put fuel in or put lines on the cleats. It sounds like yours is much better. Not a deal breaker but a real PIA!!

I too would enjoy somebody to jump on the J36 I've been on and make it go upwind evenly remotely as well as compared to a similar sized Lagoon, FP, Gemini, Island Spirit, Voyage/Norseman, etc

It would seem the morale to this story would be to go sail one, a lot, before purchase to make sure yours is one of the good ones.
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Old 11-09-2012, 11:01   #86
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Re: Jaguar 36 Stories ?

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It would seem the morale to this story would be to go sail one, a lot, before purchase to make sure yours is one of the good ones.
You're right, I guess But how can different cats of the same model sail so very different? I mean, as far as I can see/read there are minor differences, but can they influence the sail characteristics that much? You won't lose 20 degrees of windward sailing because of goofy placed cleats, right?

Wim
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Old 11-09-2012, 11:09   #87
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Re: Jaguar 36 Stories ?

[QUOTE=Notyet;1034082]I don't know much about cats yet, but if you see this video, it seems like it is sailing fairly well...

What I see is a cat with a gennaker/code zero going down wind with following seas. That's about as sweet as it gets with sails. Nice video.

I've articulated that I believe there are other J36s that sail well, I've just not been on one.

More than anything I'm impressed the autopilot is doing so well with seas off the port aft corner.
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Old 11-09-2012, 11:14   #88
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Re: Jaguar 36 Stories ?

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You're right, I guess But how can different cats of the same model sail so very different? I mean, as far as I can see/read there are minor differences, but can they influence the sail characteristics that much? You won't lose 20 degrees of windward sailing because of goofy placed cleats, right?

Wim
You clearly are ignorant of the aerodynamic drag created by poorly placed cleats. I honestly don't know why there is so much difference. If I did I would suggest looking out for hull numbers xxxxx through xxxxx.

If you go back and read all the posts on this thread I believe you will see that I'm not the only crazy on the forum that has been unimpressed on a J36. Maybe check post #21.
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Old 11-09-2012, 11:18   #89
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Re: Jaguar 36 Stories ?

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You clearly are ignorant of the aerodynamic drag created by poorly placed cleats. I honestly don't know why there is so much difference. If I did I would suggest looking out for hull numbers xxxxx through xxxxx.

If you go back and read all the posts on this thread I believe you will see that I'm not the only crazy on the forum that has been unimpressed on a J36.
Haha! Hey, you don't offend me. I don't have a J36. I just want one. The only thing I had, was a 31 year old steel Vanguard monohull sailing yacht (sorry, boat:-) which slept five. So I guess every cat for me feels like a race boat

And by the way, those cleats look aerodynamically very sophisticated to me...
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Old 11-09-2012, 12:24   #90
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Re: Jaguar 36 Stories ?

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To the owners of Jaguars; How do you think they sail when compared to other small cats? What kind of tacking angles do typically see when going to windward? What are the minimum windspeeds, with flat seas, that you sail in before motoring?
Please no offence taken! You were asking a question to owners concerning J36 performance. Maybe I misinterpreted the question because you said “other small cats” for which I would say IMHO I wouldn’t compare the J36 to Gemini. The Gemini is very narrow beam light built coastal cruiser with a displacement of around 8000 pounds where the J36 is heavy built category A boat with a displacement of around 14000 pounds. I would compare it a FP Mahe 36 or a Lagoon 38 both of which I sailed many times in charter. I thought the J36 had heaver rigging, much better sails, more room and sailed as well. These boats have comparable accommodations, engines and capacities. I’m sure there are many more but these are the ones I looked at while shopping for a boat. To tell the truth I would have been happy with either of them. Performance is very subjective because of the infinite wind and sea conditions, familiarity and condition of the equipment, loading etc etc. Hard to say why the boat you sailed didn’t perform to your expectations. I sail single handed a lot, I discovered by accident that letting the jib back wind made it “easy” to tack, I can just take my sweet time. Performance isn’t just how fast the boat will go for me.
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