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Old 28-09-2008, 11:49   #31
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Originally Posted by akmike View Post
Apparently your English isnít to good either Alan. If you read the link I posted by a well known delivery captain to which I can attest, the Jaguar does indeed take big water very nicely. Anyone who knows anything about business would laugh at the bumfuzzle story. Novice buyer of a used boat calls factory from foreign county demanding payment for damage of unknown origin. Hmmmm. Love to chat all day about the virtues of the Jag but Iím goin sailing. I hope the company does come back because this is the best layed out cat Iíve ever been on. The perfect boat, no. Great boat absolutely! PS don't get too far from shore with that Tobago!

The story in the Dutch magazine was about crappy build quality, and not the basic design of the boat per se.

It seems a number of owners on here have also had numerous issues with substandard finish, but most are now happy with their vessels.

I guess some people get very defensive about the boat they own, as though anything negative about the boat reflects on their incapacity to make a good choice. We often don't find the problems before we have owned the boat for some time, if we had been forewarned by other owners, then we could try to protect ourselves a bit better than we might have done without the knowledge.

I made my choice, at the time of purchase, based on a number of parameters and what I knew then. Would I do the same thing again today, knowing what I know now? Maybe. A major factor then was the price of the boat and the space.

I would not feel unsafe crossing an ocean in my Tobago, as I have changed numerous things on board. IMO it was alot of boat for the money Is the deckgear good? Not as standard, winches were too small, tracks too light (cheap), sails medium/low.. That is all changed on my boat, including new engines+drives+props and a complete new rig. But the basic boat is sound, at least mine is.

What I can conclude is that some builders have a consistent quality level and others don't. The sad thing is that those that don't damage the second hand value for ALL their customers.

Alan
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Old 01-10-2008, 03:25   #32
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You Asked For It

Nordic Cat, You seem so adamanet on attacking the integrity of these boats. You fail to want to recognize ANY of the positive remarks and records that have been recorded here on this thread, from references to published writings in established multihull publications to first hand experience from real life owners. You've got over 560 posts since you've joined here in Jan 08 which makes me believe that you spend way too much time tapping away on your computor instead of actually sailing.

The fact is, there's been published reports that have been very favorable to these boats in Multihull Magazine. You might have heard of this magazine. Professional Boat Delivery Captain Ian Englebrecht has taken Wildcats and Jaguars many times across the ocean successfully from Durban to the Caribbean and Florida. Captain Englebrecht is quick to comment on how well the boat handled in huge seas (up to 30 feet) that were tossed up from a nearby cyclone. And if I may quote him "We reached the final destination having gained a satisfying respect for the craft that took us almost 7,000 nm. The Wildcat MKII, in my opinion, is a well-priced investment, offering a fine balance between luxury, seaworthiness and performance. All in all, one of my most enjoyable transatlantic deliveries." Sounds to me like this seasoned salt has given the boat a major thumbs up.

These threads are worth a read for anyone interested in hearing real documented reports on Wildcats and Jaguars.

WILDCAT 35 CATAMARAN

CYCLONE ENCOUNTER

JAGUAR 36 CATAMARAN

Nordicat, I'm sorry to hear that you had to spend all that time and money equipping your boat to be seaworthy but after considerable time and money it sounds like you now have it all together. When I shopped for cats a few years back I took a serious look at several FP Tobago 35's, Leopard 38's and Athena 38's. Not to rock your boat intentionally, but with the FP Tobago I noticed the sub-par rigging that you mentioned, the older style layout and design, the standard 10 hp Volvo's that were certainly underpowered, amongst other factors that steered me away. My wife disliked the carpeted walls and the purplish colored gelcoat finish. Kind of drabby she said. The Athena was better but same deal with the older looking style and funky layout. The one I looked at was on the hard in for repair at the Marathon Boat Yard with a hull problem. We really liked the look of the Leopard 38 but the retired charter ones that we checked down in the BVI's looked the part - retired and worn. And I didn't like the heavy 40 hp Westerbeke's that weighed down the stern. Definitely a boat built for charter that anticipated a lot of motoring.

We were definitely drawn to the sleek and modern look of the Wildcat both inside and out. The walk thru transom that connects you from the cockpit to the lengthy swim platform and easily accessible sugar scroops was a big plus. It had many features and the capacity as some cats 5 to 7 feet larger than it's size. The curved aspects that someone mentioned earlier is what I really liked - the aerodynamics of the boat. Remember that posting on here a few months back of the Jeff Schionning cat that was 50 or 60 feet that many admired. Well, same designer and very similar lines. Those Lagoon cats with the vertical straight up and down windows look nice, but really how efficient are they going up wind (aerodynamically) as well as in rough seas when a wave crashes over your boat? I was also impressed with the hefty sizing of the rigging (Sparcraft), the numerous Lewmar hatches and ports (great ventilation) and the perfectly sized self tailing winches. The Wildcat was a choice I had made after over a year of thorough investigating of all the possible catamarans in the under 40 feet category.

In closing, I would like to relate Nordic Cat a story about an Englishman I had recently met in a boatyard in Ft. Pierce, Florida where I had my Wildcat hauled out this past spring. This friendly chap had just purchased a 35 foot catamaran and hired a crew to sail the boat over to England for him. The boat was being launched next to where I had my boat blocked. After seeing my Wildcat, he and his captain asked to come aboard to compare the two comparably sized cats. In sum, they were amazed at the larger space and efficient layout of the Wildcat. They noticed the beefier rigging, the Lewmar 40 ST winches, the Quantum main and genny (awesome cruising sails), the hydraulic steering, electronics, main panel and looked on in envy when he saw the two clean Volvo MD2020's (3 cylinder 20 hp) that were so easily accessible compared to his two 10 hp Volvo's. At that moment he commented how he wish he knew more about these boats before he made his decision. They soon noticed the book I had on my salon table (Catamarans by Gregar Tarjan, the one that I reference several times in this thread). I ended up selling him the book under the premise that the book would stay onboard his boat for the crew to read since most of the members didn't have much experience in sailing cruising cats (and there's some great insight to techniques in sailing cruising cats, etc. in this book). Anyways, they headed out to the Gulfstream toward Bermuda enroute to England. A month or so later I received a call from the owner (who had flown home) informing me that the boat made it but it had encountered a problem. The cross beam joining the two hulls had broken in half sending the mast crashing to the water. And you know what brand and model of boat this was? Sorry to tell you, but it was a Fountain Pujot Tobago.

This thread has contained some great insights on the Wildcat and Jaguar boats. These have come not from just one persons experience with their boat but from various owners who were honest and kind enough in sharing their experiences (both good and bad) with them. It has also referenced some journals of delivery captains that have taken these catamarans across the oceans as well as credible mentions in renowned books written on modern day cruising catamarans.

I hope this read was all worthwhile.

Kevin
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Old 01-10-2008, 04:11   #33
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A well written post based on factual accounts rather than heresay.

Out of interest, if anyone is didn't know, Sparcraft were recently bought out by Southern Spars (from NZ I think?) and are now trading under their new name.
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Old 02-10-2008, 06:45   #34
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Originally Posted by Adaero View Post
SurfNRG
A well written post based on factual accounts rather than heresay.

Out of interest, if anyone is didn't know, Sparcraft were recently bought out by Southern Spars (from NZ I think?) and are now trading under their new name.
Not only where they taken over but they also now produce Carbon Fiber masts and boom
in the Cape Town facility

Greetings

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Old 07-10-2008, 02:18   #35
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admiral cats

I am intrigued as to how come the Jaguar Cat can take so much criticism when there are worse players in the industry that nobody says a word about. Take David Bird from Admiral Yachts for example. When we bought our catamaran he treated ourselves and his workers with behavior bordering on psychopathic. There has also been a marked deterioration in Admiral build quality but all this appears to go unnoticed. Although advertising buyers can appoint their own surveyor, on attempting to check our boat our surveyor wasn't allowed entrance into the factory by David Bird. I have heard many people talking of his unpopular past in the diamond industry in South Africa but he appears to suffer no repercussions.
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Old 07-10-2008, 02:37   #36
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If it doesn't get published...

If these kind of issues are not publicised in some manner, then nobody gets to know about them.

Blogs are a very powerful tool these days, some in fact too powerful...

There are also forums like this and others, though you are not allowed to directly attack suppliers here, but a link to an interesting blog is allowed

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Alan
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Old 26-11-2008, 15:40   #37
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Steamboater: Just to let you know - I've had a 2001 Wildcat 35 (precurser to the Jaguar) for over 7 years now. I'm pretty happy with it and sail it a lot around So. California. I have not had any major problems with it. Make sure you get a Jaguar with Yanmar diesels - they just run and run and run.
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Old 26-11-2008, 18:11   #38
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The Volvo MD2020's are also found in many Wildcats and are awesome as well. I've been a Yanmar fan for years (previous mono hulls had the 3 cyl 3GM30F's) then purchased my 2001 Wildcat 350 that has the twin Volvo MD2020's. Like the 3 cylinder Yanmar 3GM30F's, they run very smooth with their 0, 120, 240 degree displacements. I personally prefer the 3 cylinder displacements verse the 2 cylinder displacements of 2 cylinder engines: 0, 180 back to zero displacement which, although very reliable, seem to have more of the Put-Put action, not as smooth running. Both the Volvo MD2020 (3 cyl) and Yanmar 2GM20F (2 cyl) that are found on the Wildcats are both great and reliable engines . The block on the Volvo MD2020's are actually made by Perkins and has the Perkins stamp on it - but of course painted with the Volvo green. Either option is great. And also good to hear from another happy Wildcat owner.
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Old 26-11-2008, 23:17   #39
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I would take the delivery captain's stories with a grain of salt. If you are Jaguar Cats, and the customer asks who you would recommend for a delivery captain, are you going to recommend the captain who wrote the glowing advertorial in Multihulls, or they guy who trashed them?

I've been aboard 2 Wildcats and I have to say the construction was not of very good quality. I also think the curved aft deck from the stern steps to the cockpit and the curved decks that have no toerail is really dangerous in wet weather.

It's the only boat I have read about in a Cruising World review that actually said the construction was poor ""I saw delaminated wood and thin fiberglass laminates," said Sherman. "In my opinion, the build quality on this vessel was very low."

Cruising World - Crunching the Numbers
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Old 27-11-2008, 10:36   #40
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I would take the delivery captain's stories with a grain of salt. If you are Jaguar Cats, and the customer asks who you would recommend for a delivery captain, are you going to recommend the captain who wrote the glowing advertorial in Multihulls, or they guy who trashed them?

I've been aboard 2 Wildcats and I have to say the construction was not of very good quality. I also think the curved aft deck from the stern steps to the cockpit and the curved decks that have no toerail is really dangerous in wet weather.

It's the only boat I have read about in a Cruising World review that actually said the construction was poor ""I saw delaminated wood and thin fiberglass laminates," said Sherman. "In my opinion, the build quality on this vessel was very low."

Cruising World - Crunching the Numbers
Well, that's a no-brainer. Of course you'd go with the experienced, professional and licensed delivery captain who has hundreds of thousands of sea miles in his log verse someone who just bought their very first boat and was on their very first journey (who in this case was the one who trashed the builder for an unresolved matter).

Not sure where you came up with "glowing advertorial". I sell advertising for a living the past 25 years and deal with advertorials frequently. This article in Multihulls was in no way an advertorial as you claim. Charter Cats did not pay to have the article published and it's not listed as an advertorial. Multihulls Magazine ran it strictly EDITORIALLY.

These log entries regarding the deliveries are well worth the read. We're not talking of a quick run off the dock sail for an hour in protected waters scheduled around a boat show either. Two are from sailing the boat from the SE corner of Africa, around the Cape of Good Hope where the Indian Ocean meets the South Atlantic (one of the most treacherous seas), then sailed all the way to Brazil, then up the Windward Islands of the Caribbean. That's what I call a good review.

WILDCAT 35 CATAMARAN

CYCLONE ENCOUNTER

JAGUAR 36 CATAMARAN

Regarding your thoughts on the curved decks, the flip side of the coin is that you get a high headroom in the berths. It's a tradeoff.

Regarding the Cruising World article, you'll notice that they reviewed a total of five multihulls ranging with the Jaguar (mid $200K), which cost way less than any of the other boats (Broadblue 42 ft / $580,000), (St. Francis 50 ft / $760,000), (Lagoon 50 ft / $770,000) and (Gunboat 48 ft / $1,300,000). Surely not an apples to apples comparison. And I've yet to see a Wildcat or Jaguar model where you have to walk thru a head (toilet) to get to a stateroom as they claimed in their review. All models I've seen have both heads all the way forward in the hulls with sink and shower and all four berths have standing headroom with lots of sprawl out space in the beds.

Wish they would have been more specific on "wood delamination" as per the area, etc.. No mention of fiberglass delam though. And unfortunately no mention of the Quadriaxel Glass and epoxy resin below, polyestor resin above construction of the Wildcat / Jag. Instead they just say "thin fiberglass" and nothing of the vacuum bagged technology that they used with the above quality materials. It's not a Gunboat / carbon fiber tech boat but at more than a million dollars less you wouldn't expect it to be.

I stand behind my claim that you're not gonna find a better modern cruising catamaran in the price range of the Wildcats and/or Jaguars as many other owners also have attested to.
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Old 27-11-2008, 21:49   #41
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What I find amusing is that all 3 glowing reviews are from just the same delivery skipper, who will be out of job with Jaguar if he pans the boat...

No, Multihulls probably didn't accept any money for the article. But they have a bad habit of accepting articles written by builders or others with a vested interest in the boat being described without disclosing that person's interest in the boat. It's not unique to Jaguar unfortunately, but using it as a positive example as to why your boat is great is not very credible. I'd rather listen to somebody who has nothing to gain from the article such as the cruising world article.

A trade winds passage up the South Atlantic is generally considered one of the easiest there is, though I do agree that the coast of S. Africa is really unpleasant. I don't consider it that much of a torture test for a catamaran.

Other opinions:

Charles Kanter, a well know author about cats agrees with me on the curved decks. Southwinds - June 1999

The curved deck is for less wind resistance, according to the designer, but in my opinion they are downright unsafe. If you want more headroom over the berths, whey wouldn't you continue the hull topsides further up, and have a flatter deck. The huge radius actually decreases headroom in the outboard side of the hull.

Cruising World weren't comparing the Wildcat to the Gunboat directly; they just said the construction sucked. And sorry, just because the builder uses Quadraxial cloth or vacuum bags it, doesn't make it a good boat; rather stitched fabrics and bagging is the expected norm with cored construction these days.

And let's look at somebody else's experience with Wildcat construction:

Jaguar 36

One guy reported leaking through the keel fresh from the factory, and the 2nd page of the thread has somebody else on a sea trial with leaks and cracks in the hull.

Whoops, here is another owner who thinks the sloping decks are hazardous and the boat had lots of problems when it arrived.

My Product Gallery - 350 - Powered by ReviewPost

Value for money? I suppose so. But when you actually look at the pictures of the bumfuzzle delam, where big pockets of core never bonded, and the builder is finally saying "oh, must be lightning", you have to know he's blowing smoke up your ass. What you have in the photo is a "never bond". The core never bonded to the skin.



The beauty of the internet is that anybody googling for "Jaguar catamaran problems" is going to hit this thread...

Finally, here's a stern shot of the infamous Bumfuzzle - with the transoms just kissing the water i.e. slightly overloaded, the bridgedeck clearance is horrible.

Jaguar 36
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Old 28-11-2008, 08:19   #42
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It certainly does appear that the core was never bonded to the outer skin; in any event, balsa core below the waterline, as used on these boats, is very susceptible to delamination should blisters develop, or should the hull be damaged.

Does anyone know how the manufacturer dealt with thru-hull installatioin? If it is not solid glass in those areas, it is a recipe for disaster. Even if it is solid glass, are any other spots available for the installation of additional thru-hulls for items such as watermakers, water-cooled refrigeration, etc.?

Brad
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Old 28-11-2008, 10:29   #43
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Evan, So you’re now calling them “glowing reviews” and not advertorials anymore. At least we’re getting somewhere.

Professional delivery captain’s reports of boats that they’ve spent considerable amount of time on, and in various sea conditions, are great ways to evaluate a boat. And this captain didn’t sail just exclusively for Charter Cats. And although you say the thousands of miles of stretch from South Africa to Brazil is an easy run I guess you didn’t read the part where he was sailing in 45 knots winds with 5.5 meter seas (16.5 feet) and surfing down waves with up to 16.5 knots of speed – without broaching. You also might have missed his other report where he sailed a Wildcat from India to Durban and encountered a Cyclone with seas 25 to 30 feet and praised the boat for its performance in these conditions. To me, it’s far cry evaluation from a one hour sail scheduled around a boat show. And note, there are other favorable reports of these boats by other delivery captains including Greg Taylor/Commodore Zululand Yacht Club, and Bruce Ardeme. I’ve ran across others but here’s a link to a couple more if you find a professional boat delivery captains opinions beyond “A Grain of Salt”.

WILDCAT 350 +FOTOS Y REPORTAJES

WILDCAT 350

Hearing from owners is another way. There are plenty of Wildcat / Jaguar owners that are very happy with their boats. As with any boat, and I may repeat ANY boat, there can be issues. Read over the threads on the new MAHE 36 forum and you’ll see. That’s just how it is. We’ve been fortunate to hear accounts from Wildcat owners that have been posted here on this forum both favorable and unfavorable. There are several other Wildcat owners that I’ve met that are happy owners as well that aren’t even on this forum. There’s accounts of owners sailing them around the world. And keep in mind, Bumfuzzle did make it safely around the world although he had the delam issue.

And here’s the owners of Prrrrfection who sailed around in their Wildcat 350
JOURNAL HOMEPAGE | PRRRFECTION - a sailing circumnavigation.

Regarding your reference to Charles Kanter, yes, he is a renowned author and surveyor of multihulls, as well as the one who performed the survey on Bumfuzzle for Pat and Alli prior to their purchase. His survey DID NOT REPORT ANY DELAM ISSUES with the boat during his inspection although he did make note of his dislike of the sloped decks. I briefly spoke with Charles at the Miami Boat Show a couple years back and he stood by his report that he didn’t find any delam issues after carefully tapping out the entire boat. Go figure, and he’s considered an expert in the field and a world renown surveyor.

And regarding your dislike of the curved hull design, it is great for less wind resistance (better upwind performance which is nice for a cat) and flow of heavy sea water in case of unpleasant conditions. Please note that Jeff Schionning of Australia is the designer of the Widlcat and Jaguars. He also designed the catamaran that many on this forum have spoke very favorably about. You can see the similarity in HULL DESIGN including the curved hulls with this 50 footer.

The Schionning Waterline 1480 Barrocka. Art and design.

And by the way, there are many boats with balsa core below the waterline including the Robertson & Caine designed Leopard/Moorings. And I haven’t noticed any delam issues around any of my thru hulls.

Signing off. Time to go sailing..,
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Old 28-11-2008, 20:53   #44
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best cat for the $$

Prior to buying our cat I looked at about 5 or 6 different wildcats, both the original shape with galley down and the later re-design with galley up etc. It is without doubt the best cat for the $$, there simply is no other cat which come close in its price range. At the time I looked at a very clean '99 model with 2 prior surveys, both which were fine, it was selling fully loaded for 1000 000 SA rand which = approx $100 000...no other cat can compare in this price range...and thats what we are talking about here...you absolutely must compare apples to apples. Even the Bumfuzzle dude was amazed when he bought his Wildcat how much more cat he was getting compared to an older Tobago. Without a doubt a few bad stories are giving all Wildcats a bad rap...its sad and simply not right. My budget (and family of 4) was bigger so I went for a bigger (and older boat), but I still wonder if I would have been just as happy on a smaller boat like the Wildcat, and still have $100 000 in my pocket!!! Its basically the 'sheep' mentality where no one wants to have to justify (myself included) to their friends or forum members why they bought a Wildcat, even though in their hearts they know there is no more wrong with it than PLENTY of other boats, so they end up buying something more 'accepted' by the masses. Then they can all pat each other on the back and say: 'Har har at least I did not buy one of those Widlcats, they are all crap you know, har har.' Someone should list all the issues which all the different boats have had, there are bad eggs in ALL of them, why doesnt someone start on Catana, to name just one. If I was in that 35ft, $100000-$160000 price/size range I would buy a used Wildcat for sure. Obviously you will have to check the history, hull no of the boat and do a full survey...I actually think that due to the bad press the Wildcat is undervalued...which makes a good used one even more attractive. Only downside is that you may struggle to sell it in the end, because we are still a bunch of sheep. Myself included.
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Old 28-11-2008, 22:13   #45
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JAG 36

I am currently having a Jaguar 36 ( with a 2 foot extension) built by Eric Schoeman. With all the talk around about bad build quality, I commissioned a independant surveyor from word go.
He has been visiting the factory in Cape Town every three weeks to check if the specified materials are being used, the lay-up procedure, build quality etc.
The boat is now past half way, and the reports so far are good, and if anything, being over built, and is adead of schedual.

I remember in school how well i used to work when the teacher was looking over my shoulder.

Rather safe than sorry, this is the only way to go no matter who is building the boat.
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