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Old 10-06-2005, 12:06   #1
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Jaguar 36

I have been researching cats for awhile and like a lot of people originally thought that the Jaguar 36 looked like a lot of boat for the money. Now I know why.

If you have any interest in this boat don't go any further in your research until you have read this.

http://www.bumfuzzle.com/C.C.%20Correspondence.htm

I see there was a lot of talk about this website in the general board but I didn't see any reference to the Jaguar there.

Wish more people were honest about their boats problems it would sure make the buying process a lot easier.

Jason
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Old 12-06-2005, 23:00   #2
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Jaguar 36

Jason, Thanks for the good info. We looked at a Jag 36 at a boat show and it did seem like a lot of boat for the money. When we looked closely, however, quality finish work was lacking. It is sometimes difficult to get accurate info on a boat. Even owners are reluctant to talk about problems since they will be boat sellers eventually and don't want to spread bad news. Caveat emptor applies to boats in spades. You have to dig deeply to get factual information on boats.
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Old 13-06-2005, 00:04   #3
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Please let's have "Charter Cats" e-mail address. I for one would like to tell them how I have changed my mind about buying any of their products.
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Old 13-06-2005, 10:32   #4
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Contact Details for Charter Cats SA (PTY) Ltd

POSTAL ADDRESS:
P.O. BOX 5590
DURBAN 4000
SOUTH AFRICA

PHYSICAL ADDRESS:
NO.5 SALMON GROVE
DURBAN 4000
SOUTH AFRICA

TEL: +27 (0)31 305 5093
FAX: +27 (0)31 305 5113
CELL: 082 882 7042
EMAIL: info@chartercatssa.com
WEB: http://www.chartercatssa.com/
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Old 23-06-2005, 08:36   #5
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Just for reference i guess...

Hi folks,

After reading this forum, I was sufficiently moved to contact Charter Cats to tell them of my concern for their product and backup. Here is the reply I received...food for thought.

"Hello [Removed],

Thank you for your mail, which was forwarded to me internally. The ‘Bumfuzzle Saga’ raises its ugly head from time to time, where rather than automatically launch a smear campaign to discredit all those with an opinion, it is still Charter Cats SA’s position to engage in meaningful dialogue on an individual basis, thus this reply.

You took the time to actually write to us and as such deserve a response. To feel we may have lost a customer based on the individual isolated experience of a single member of the public, who was not even a customer is sad.

Charter Cats SA has delivered almost 160 hulls to customers all over the world. We have in excess of 30 years building experience, with NOT A SINGLE incident of this kind in the past. Our policy is to take each problem head on. No manufacturer can avoid problems, whether it be cars, boats or hairdryers. Each boat is fully customized in our factory and as such the capacity for gremlins remains. We have continued to upgrade our manufacturing quality and invite you AT ANY TIME to arrive at our factory and investigate for yourself, along with the Dutch CE bureau who visits once a month. CE is a considerably higher spec than is required by US Coast Guard. We are satisfied that we are doing more than is necessary to address issues of quality.

In terms of customer relations, we have employed new staff to handle the information chain. 80% of what transpired with ‘Bumfuzzle’ could have been avoided with better communication. Despite an unpleasant mail from yourself, you are still going to enjoy a reply.

Bear in mind, unlike the Schultes, we did not enter dialogue with them believing it would be posted internationally in a blow-by-blow format.

1. The boat was built in 2002 and sold to the owner for $118 270.00usd. Our records indicate that NO Charter Cats Cat has EVER sold for less than it was purchased for. Interesting fact. Even one damaged in last years hurricanes fetched more than its original price. The sentiment of the market dictates this, neither our own wishes nor isolated opinion.

2. It crossed the Atlantic, a matter of 8,000 miles, and was then sold on to the present owners, the Schultes.

3. Prior to purchase the Schultes had the boat surveyed by one of Americas top and most knowledgeable surveyors and it received a clean bill of health. Nothing untoward as alleged by the Schultes was found. The disbonding, (not delamination), would have been detected during the survey had it been there at that time. The method of tapping with a surveyor’s hammer could not possibly have missed detection. Visible ‘bumps’ would have appeared on the hull due to air expansion.

4. As to the absurd observation that ‘a skin fitting was so loose that it could be spun around in the hull and all the other skin fittings were leaking’, - It is yachting 101 that with these fittings leaking, the cat would have been sinking! In 32 years, not one cat has sunk. A surveyor not picking something as important as this up is so improbable as to be impossible. These are the most important aspects for inspection and no surveyor could have omitted seeing this. Statements such as these are characteristic of a distinct lack of nautical and marine knowledge as admitted frequently throughout the Schulte’s own writings.

5. After hauling the boat and inspecting it, this very surveyor could not recognize the keels as being an integral part of the hull and makes the statement that ‘the keels have been glassed onto the hull’! He makes this observation even though he had planed straight through 3900 grams of stitched quad glass, half an inch thick. Our keels are structurally included in the mould. This observation casts a dubious light on the integrity of the inspector, particularly in light that they are also the repairer. He then proceeds to remedy the situation by repairing the area with 900 grams of chopstrand – the weakest and heaviest of all materials in the boating industry. Any qualified GRP boat builder will confirm that the keel repair, using this method, together with the quantity and type of glass used, is not only incomprehensible, but dangerously unacceptable. Unfortunately, the experience of the Schultes was not adequate to protect their interests at the time. There will be critics and supporters in every camp, Charter Cats SA believe that the methods employed in the assessment and repair of the damages was questionable.

6. Their surveyor also notes that the keels have had a bad repair job done on them and that even the anti-fouling was glassed over. It is food for thought as to exactly why the Schulte’s suddenly decided to ‘prepare the boat for the Pacific crossing’? Had something happened to the boat between Ft.Lauderdale, where they prepared for their around the world trip, and the Panama Canal? It is highly irregular that one would start to make preparations and only anti-foul their hulls then in what they admit to be a suspect and backward part of the world.

7. It is the opinion of the company that damage was done to the keels. This damage would have been apparent to the surveyor at the time of purchase, which leaves only one answer. The new owners, the Schultes, must have had the boat at the time that this damage was done. Either this, or a highly regarded surveyor even in our opinion, was grossly negligent in his assessment. Not only is it unsuitable that Charter Cats did not enjoy any access to the boat during the course of the debacle, but we can only base our own opinion on the information as delivered by a biased source, who’s opinion must weigh in their (and the person paying the bills’) favor. This would never stand in a court of law. Add to this the insult of their efforts to claim compensation taking a position of ignorance, then further hold us to ransom publicly for repairs we did not sanction. Repairs we maintain are ineffective, based again on the one-sided positions taken. The final bill of over $33,000 is unheard of for virtually an entire hull replacement. Their NZ surveyor/boat repairer (sic) certainly saw this pair coming.

8. The Schultes were told exactly how to effect sound, efficient repairs at low cost; a cost which we, without obligation, offered to pay. They elected rather to go with the first boatyard they came across, not even an attempt was made to get other opinions and/or quotations from any other yards. Then, against our advice, they went ahead and did what they had been advised in isolation and still felt that it might be acceptable to us?!!

9. The hull below the waterline is coated with two layers of International Gel Shield epoxy specifically formulated for osmosis protection - and no osmosis or delamination was found on survey. For the NZ surveyor/boat repairer to then plane off the complete hull up to the split line in the mould, when he knew that there was a join at this point where the bubbles were in the gelcoat and front as well, makes little sense. The only sense that this would make would be for the finances of the boatyard. It would have been easy to effect a gelcoat repair in the immediate area of the bubbling – not planing off the entire hull resulting in the whole boat having to be repainted.

10. Finally, again based on the information we had the logical and cost effective manner of repair would have been the method of vacuum bagging and epoxy infusion as recommended. The whole operation would have been finished in a tenth of the time, at a fraction of the cost.

We feel that the Schulte’s expectations are unrealistic, and take umbrage with the way in which they portray us in their account of what transpired. In our many years of boating and sailing around the world, we have never encountered such ignorance and unadulterated cheek as displayed by this couple. We have a policy of carrying out our warranty repair work, but as quoted by one of the largest marine motor manufacturer dealers, “we do not warranty customers stupidity”! We couldn’t agree more.

All our boats now have CE approved ratings, necessitating inspection throughout the build process from beginning to end. Potential oversights in the manufacturing process are considerably less likely. In the unlikely event that there is a product failure, we have a comprehensive manufacturers warranty to offer significant peace of mind.

The Schultes were handled poorly, fact. We hope to not repeat this in the future.

At the end of the day you as a consumer have the right to purchase whatever you feel you like, from whomever. If you are to be influenced as you have been by the writings of an isolated member of the sailing community, then that is your right and you have made a decision. If anything, our order book continues to grow as a result of the Bumfuzzle saga, as it has created an opportunity for us as a group to be critical of where we make mistakes and do what’s necessary to remedy them, that’s good corporate governance.

Charter Cats continues to build and deliver world-class boats across the globe, satisfying customers as we go."

Always a second side to the story!

CatsOK!
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Old 23-06-2005, 18:37   #6
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.
Quote:
Charter Cats SA has delivered almost 160 hulls to customers all over the world. We have in excess of 30 years building experience, with NOT A SINGLE incident of this kind in the past.
From...

http://www.sailnet.com/collections/a...eid=ouread0059

Quote:
It was late afternoon on the Saturday before Easter. The winds were off our port quarter at 15 to 20 knots apparent, and the big spinnaker was pulling our heavily loaded cat along at about eight to 10 knots. A routine check of the port bilges brought the “Oh Sh--” response to the substantial amount of water found. After pumping the bilge dry, a close inspection under the teak and holly revealed a small spout of salt water every time the boat settled into a wave. After ruling out all the obvious causes for sea water in the bilge, we decided we had better find a port to diagnose the problem rather than having a larger problem reveal itself in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean.
Quote:
When the boat was hoisted out of the water our diagnoses were confirmed. A small patch of fiberglass cloth was delaminating at the trailing edge of the keel. The normally hollow keel had filled with seawater. On the third morning of our detour, a call to the factory connected them with Fibermarine, a local ship builder. They took responsibility for repairs, and a swarm of workmen descended on the boat. To take my mind off the grinding and cutting on my brand new boat, we decided to play tourist.
Do you see a trend here? At least fresh out of the factory they took care of these folks.
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Old 23-06-2005, 18:41   #7
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http://www.practical-sailor.com/pub/...es/4685-1.html

I don't have the full text of this article, but I remember reading it and one ofthe problems was delamination (or disbonding?) of the deck.

Quote:
Duet, a South African-built Wildcat 350, had more than its share of problems.
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Old 27-06-2005, 13:15   #8
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Couple of points I found amusing about that reply from the company were

in #7 do they honestly think anyone would believe that the Schultes would not allow them access to their boat while this was going on?

and #6 as anybody who has sailed around the world knows, Panama is an extremely popular place in which to have bottom painting done. Your next chance to paint is about 5000 miles away.

The other thing I found interesting is that the company didn't dispute that the Schultes were honest in printing all e-mail corespondence,, only that they didn't know before it all started, as if that should make any difference in how you treat your boat owners.

Not the strongest retort if you ask me.
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Old 26-01-2007, 11:42   #9
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I have read the BumFuzzle chronicles, and while I enjoyed it and commend them on their adventurous spirit, their issue with their boat manufacturer made me do my own research which is not based on the various forums that are feeding off this issue. The following conclusions:

1. While it is fair comment to suggest that other Wildcat owners would be reluctant to criticize their cats because of possible future resale, all the drama with Bumfuzzle took place in late '04 and early '05. Surely some of these other owners would have realized their "mistakes" and sold. They would then have been free to criticize. Apart from Jim Cash (who it appears was magnificently cared for by Charter Cats) I could not find any actual owners past or present who were unhappy with their Wildcats. Given the number of cats sold . . . ?

2. The Schultes seemed to experience a lot of problems that were not boat building issues, but possibly maintenance related and perhaps general lack of care and consideration. Lots of motor problems, water spillage issues etc. What surprised me was that, after travelling halfway around the world, a blog reader made an observation that their cat was improperly loaded (too heavy forward). They rearranged everything and found they were no longer diving into waves as before.(??) So what was the argument about regarding whether a loose through-hull was above or below the waterline? Where was their waterline? How did it contribute to delamination/disbonding?

3. To dispute Charter Cats lightning strike theory they claimed that their previous blogs did not record lightning strikes, so that was their proof! And the "wave diving"? Also not mentioned earlier. Were other things left out?

4. I don't know Charter Cats except for what I learned via the Bumfuzzle chronicles, this forum, and my subsequent internet research. I did not like their lack of response and their tone. For the rest,I am not sure if I would have responded differently given the way warranties are generally effected. Imagine Hyundai owners having all their repairs done by Mercedes without authorization from Hyundai, and then expect them to foot the bill. I was puzzled why the Schultes had'nt taken out insurance, but that may just be my ignorance showing.

5. I found another blog of a family cirumnavigating with a Wildcat 350. No similar problems were experienced:

PRRRFECTION - a sailing circumnavigation.

I sympathize with the schultes because of the way this entire episode hit their pockets, but they seemed to let the surveyor off the hook quite easliy (and protected his name) but had no qualms about single-handedly setting out to destroy Charter Cats reputation. Whether Charter Cats deserve it or not I cannot tell. I would at least wait for other (qualified) opinions before crucifying them.
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Old 26-01-2007, 13:00   #10
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And then there is Cruising World's experience when they looked at the Jaguar for last year's Boat of the Year contest:

"I looked at the price ($230,000) and thought we might have a Best Value from the multihull class," said Lee. "But no matter what the relative cost, a value boat still has to be a good boat. Layout-wise, you had to walk through a head to get to a stateroom, and that's faulty no matter how good the workmanship is. And it was the only cat we sailed that had underwing pounding." "I saw delaminated wood and thin fiberglass laminates," said Sherman. "In my opinion, the build quality on this vessel was very low."

Now, if Charter Cats does this sort of a job on a boat submitted for review by CW, I can't believe they would put any better effort into their boats for customers.

Obviously, if you want to do business with them, that is your decision. Hopefully, this discussion will be helpful as you perform your due diligence.

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Old 26-01-2007, 13:19   #11
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As I said, I am not trying to make Charter Cats case. Wildcat blogs (not Jaguars head) was the topic. Also, in reference to my request for "qualified" critics, unless you and Cruising World (did you say they looked?) have actually put some significant miles behind you in a Wildcat . . .

Hell, who am I to stop you! Bash away!
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Old 26-01-2007, 13:31   #12
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Not trying to bash anyone, Peter. My only personal experience on a Wildcat was a daysail, quite some time ago. I wasn't favorably impressed by several things (heavily sloped decks, insecure steps into the hulls, insufficient cockpit drains, sloppy fittings), but those are my conclusions -- yours may be different.

My purpose in the post was to include relevant observations made, and published, by the CW reviewers, as I did not see where they had been previously entered in this thread.

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Old 26-01-2007, 14:03   #13
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Drifter, point taken. At the top of this thread there was a reference to the experiences of Bumfuzzle and their issues with Wildcat 350 and the manufacturer Charter Cats which is quite disturbing to read. This has lead to others on this forum denouncing all cats manufactured in South Africa as inferior. While I would not dispute the comments by CW in your previous response, it is unfair to trash an entire country's products, or even that of a particular manufacturer based on the experience (or opinion) of one person. That is why I would like to hear from owners or former owners of ie. Jaguar and Wildcat in order to get an informed opinion before I jump on that same bandwagon. Having said that, I respect your opinion based on your trip on a Wildcat. The owners of Bumfuzzle, however, were apparently not unhappy with the ride, and I earlier included a link to the blogs of Prrrfection who circumnavigated with the same model with no problems.

I also agree with the opinion of CW regarding traipsing through the head each time you want to go to bed on the Jaguar. Others may not mind.

The Cruising World 2005 BOTY competition had only three entrants for Multihulls 40' and under. All three were built in South Africa.
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Old 26-01-2007, 15:19   #14
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I would not diss SA boats, in general. There are a number of cats produced there that I would be proud to own -- I can't afford all of them, but I'd like to own them, nonetheless! A few examples:

St. Francis 50 (or 48)
Gunboat (any Gunboat -- though my wife would disagree with the comment, "there's a boy's toy!")
FastCat 435
Probably the new Leopard 46
Possibly the Knysna 44 (formerly the St. Francis 44)

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Old 01-03-2007, 13:50   #15
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Another South African cat to consider is the Leopard40 built by Robertson & Caine, Cape Town, South Africa. This cat won the US Imported Cat of the Year in 2005. I own one and love her more every time I take her out for a sail. Sails beautifully, accomodation well designed, professionaly built.

Both Sunsail and Moorings have now standardised their buying in of cats for their international charter fleets....the only cats they buy is the Robertson & Caine Leopard range, called the Moorings Cats, but those sold to private owners are called Leopards. Fantastic boats.
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