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Old 20-04-2013, 11:26   #46
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Re: It seems many multi's today are motor boats with auxiliary sails...

To the OP--what does the designer call for? That might be the place to start.
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Old 20-04-2013, 13:04   #47
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Re: It seems many multi's today are motor boats with auxiliary sails...

I believe Hughes, who was working for Perry, at the time, though I could be wrong, wanted a couple of outboards on the boat, rather than a diesel. Didn't happen, but I believe he wanted to keep the boat light as possible. It is.

you know, I don't want to be stupid about it, but having raced cats for years, I understand the benefits of a light boat. She is easily driven with her slick hull and reduced windage, and I don't motor into 25 knot (or more) winds and seas. You won't survive long in Hawaiian waters doing that in the channels.

I am an old school Hiscock guy in many ways (all electronics will fail eventually out there; heavy modern anchor and all chain; seamanship; keep it simple), but have a go-fast mentality. I owned 50% of Hans Christian Yachts in the 70's (never made a dime, and never cut corners on the boats), but don't even want to sail on a monohull now. The only "weight" on my boat is my ground tackle...and, engine. Swapping a 4 cyl. 520 lb Yanmar 50 hp, with 2 to 1 ratio, for a 4 cyl. 374 lb Beta Marine 38 hp 2.45 to 1, and a Max-prop purchased in 2000, that came with the boat, may work for me. As we all know, hp to weight to gear ratio while throwing in a feathering prop, this is sort of vodoo science.

Cats and tris are such terrific designs. I've had the boat to 22 knots to weather, in big, Pacific Ocean swells. Why folks load them down with stuff...well, each to his/her own.
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Old 20-04-2013, 13:08   #48
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Re: It seems many multi's today are motor boats with auxiliary sails...

Sounds like you know what you want to do. Keep in mind that a lot of us are located in places where we would have a tough time enjoying things without a fair bit of power on hand, and the wind doesn't blow strong or steady all the time. Though I will say that purely based on mucho reading about Pacific voyaging, having a strong engine has saved a lot of folks when dealing with reef entrances and storms at anchor with very marginal protection and poor holding.
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Old 20-04-2013, 13:10   #49
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Re: It seems many multi's today are motor boats with auxiliary sails...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caracal View Post
I wonder how many horsepowers this one has (yes, it actually is a cruiser):


Caracal, cool tri. Can you tell me more about the boat?
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Old 20-04-2013, 13:19   #50
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Re: It seems many multi's today are motor boats with auxiliary sails...

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Originally Posted by Kettlewell View Post
Sounds like you know what you want to do. Keep in mind that a lot of us are located in places where we would have a tough time enjoying things without a fair bit of power on hand, and the wind doesn't blow strong or steady all the time. Though I will say that purely based on mucho reading about Pacific voyaging, having a strong engine has saved a lot of folks when dealing with reef entrances and storms at anchor with very marginal protection and poor holding.
Again, I agree with you. I got a good deal on my boat in 2009, and I don't know enough about this correct engine deal for a light boat this size. You, and the folks on this site, have given me some very good ideas. If this "older" Max-prop is adjustable, I would think I could adjust the pitch to align the engine hp and gear ratio to what best fits the boat. I little nervous about it, really. OT, but I see your boat is for sale. What will you do when you sell your boat? Bigger? Smaller? Different design? Or ease off a bit from sailing?
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Old 20-04-2013, 13:54   #51
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Re: It seems many multi's today are motor boats with auxiliary sails...

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Caracal, cool tri. Can you tell me more about the boat?
Yes I know a little. First off, it's not mine. I wish, but that doesn't get me anywhere.

The tri is called "Paradox", or rather,"?aradox".

It's based on the Fuji (yes, that one), and it's a project which took ten years. The owner wanted a scaled down Fuji for cruising, so they began with the Fuji scaled down to 50 foot. The size grew, and the amas are now not only full Fuji amas, but a little bit longer. They used the original moulds from Fuji for those.

The mast is a bit lower than that of Fuji (The Fuji had a 100ft mast, this one has a mast of 85ft).

Length-wise, I'm a bit in doubt. I know for fact that it is at least 63 feet. Whether that length was measured before or after the adding of what Nigel Irens calls "skirts" at the rear (scoops for the rest of us). If so, it might even have an all-up in the upper sixties.

The akas are from the scaled-down-to 50ft he wanted to make before mission creep set in. But with a lower mast, it seems to have worked out quite nicely (it's still wide as feck, I think).

The designer is Nigel Irens and another designer whose name escapes me at the moment (a French designer?).

It was designed to be singlehanded, has a rotating mast (not canting, though), and is truly a minimalist sailing machine, although he does have a heater, a fridge, a nav station, a saloon table and such. It even has some bunks in the amas.

The owner is American.

I think that's what I know off the top of my head
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Old 20-04-2013, 15:34   #52
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Re: It seems many multi's today are motor boats with auxiliary sails...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pipeline View Post
I believe Hughes, who was working for Perry, at the time, though I could be wrong, wanted a couple of outboards on the boat, rather than a diesel. Didn't happen, but I believe he wanted to keep the boat light as possible. It is.

you know, I don't want to be stupid about it, but having raced cats for years, I understand the benefits of a light boat. She is easily driven with her slick hull and reduced windage, and I don't motor into 25 knot (or more) winds and seas. You won't survive long in Hawaiian waters doing that in the channels.

I am an old school Hiscock guy in many ways (all electronics will fail eventually out there; heavy modern anchor and all chain; seamanship; keep it simple), but have a go-fast mentality. I owned 50% of Hans Christian Yachts in the 70's (never made a dime, and never cut corners on the boats), but don't even want to sail on a monohull now. The only "weight" on my boat is my ground tackle...and, engine. Swapping a 4 cyl. 520 lb Yanmar 50 hp, with 2 to 1 ratio, for a 4 cyl. 374 lb Beta Marine 38 hp 2.45 to 1, and a Max-prop purchased in 2000, that came with the boat, may work for me. As we all know, hp to weight to gear ratio while throwing in a feathering prop, this is sort of vodoo science.

Cats and tris are such terrific designs. I've had the boat to 22 knots to weather, in big, Pacific Ocean swells. Why folks load them down with stuff...well, each to his/her own.
Sound like for what you want, a 4 stroke outboard would be ideal.

There's a 3 cylinder Tohatsu 30 at around 75kg that looks good.
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Old 20-04-2013, 16:28   #53
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Re: It seems many multi's today are motor boats with auxiliary sails...

What I'm looking to do with my boat, is to have electric powered thrusters that retract hanging off the crossbeams, one each side.
This gives you excellent maneuverability, but completely out of the water when not needed. Electric so they are light, the heavy part (bats or generator) is in the main hull down low. Something like this setup on a cat, this one used torquedo outboards fitting to a swing arm, but mine will be bigger, better, faster, cheaper.



From this article on multihull world.

John Hitch's X-IT, which is the boat I had in my head and then found he already built it, has a kinda similiar setup, but using two 50hp outboards, too much weight up high in my opinion, but sometimes you just go with what's available,
and of course, this boat has nothing in the hulls.

Attached Files
File Type: pdf watts up (1).pdf (301.0 KB, 37 views)
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Old 20-04-2013, 16:35   #54
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Re: It seems many multi's today are motor boats with auxiliary sails...

I found some more info on Paradox.

It has a 75hp Volvo diesel, but also this:

Quote:
Fitted with an extensive array of solar panels as well as a hydro-generator and fuel cell, Paradox rarely needs to use her engine, save when maneuvering off anchorage or motoring in a dead calm.

Quote:
Paradox is truly a cruising trimaran, comfortable down below with plenty of space and headroom. Totally reliable with solar power, a watermaker, refrigerator and plenty of storage space for food, Paradox is completely self-sufficient for a trans-oceanic adventure – and a fast one at that.
From here:
Paradox: Building a Dream Yacht www.yachtworld.co.uk

Where you can also see pictures like this (take a look at just how wide that traveller is!):





Two button control of the hydraulic mainsheet system:




Sailplan compared to a "proper" Orma 60:


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Old 20-04-2013, 16:53   #55
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Re: It seems many multi's today are motor boats with auxiliary sails...

Quote:
I see your boat is for sale. What will you do when you sell your boat? Bigger? Smaller? Different design? Or ease off a bit from sailing?
I plan on getting something around 30 feet that sails really well, is very easy to singlehand, and probably will have a small engine, maybe even an outboard for power!
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Old 20-04-2013, 17:02   #56
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Re: It seems many multi's today are motor boats with auxiliary sails...

I don't know what the correct answer is to engine size.

But I do know that if you want to keep a boat light (and this tri sounds like it will want to be light) that you have to be brutal everywhere all the time. It is very dangerous to say "well 20 extra kgs here gives me a little extra" because soon you have an extra 20kgs everywhere.

You need to be always looking to cut weight, not add weight . . . and even so, in cruising trim, the boat will probably be heavier than the designer thought.
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Old 20-04-2013, 17:14   #57
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Re: It seems many multi's today are motor boats with auxiliary sails...

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It is very dangerous to say "well 20 extra kgs here gives me a little extra" because soon you have an extra 20kgs everywhere.
So true, and then generally if you get a bigger engine you get bigger fuel tanks and fill them with more fuel, which can add substantially to the weight. Consider this--50 gallons of diesel adds 355 lbs and probably closer to 400 pounds with the tank. Maybe get a bigger engine for power when you need it, and somehow resist the temptation to get big fuel tanks?
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Old 21-04-2013, 00:10   #58
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Re: It seems many multi's today are motor boats with auxiliary sails...

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Originally Posted by nimblemotors View Post
What I'm looking to do with my boat, is to have electric powered thrusters that retract hanging off the crossbeams, one each side.
This gives you excellent maneuverability, but completely out of the water when not needed. Electric so they are light, the heavy part (bats or generator) is in the main hull down low. Something like this setup on a cat, this one used torquedo outboards fitting to a swing arm, but mine will be bigger, better, faster, cheaper.


I'm currently working on this boat, repairing it from extensive damage it received when it was blown off it's mooring by cyclone Oswald.

The Torqueedos are long gone, they were a dismal failure, and years ago were replaced by outboard power.
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Old 21-04-2013, 10:05   #59
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Re: It seems many multi's today are motor boats with auxiliary sails...

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
I'm currently working on this boat, repairing it from extensive damage it received when it was blown off it's mooring by cyclone Oswald.

The Torqueedos are long gone, they were a dismal failure, and years ago were replaced by outboard power.
What was the nature of the problem(s)?
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Old 21-04-2013, 13:15   #60
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Re: It seems many multi's today are motor boats with auxiliary sails...

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I don't know what the correct answer is to engine size.

But I do know that if you want to keep a boat light (and this tri sounds like it will want to be light) that you have to be brutal everywhere all the time. It is very dangerous to say "well 20 extra kgs here gives me a little extra" because soon you have an extra 20kgs everywhere.

You need to be always looking to cut weight, not add weight . . . and even so, in cruising trim, the boat will probably be heavier than the designer thought.
Exactly. Every time I bring aboard 20 lbs, I'm figuring out how to remove 20 lbs.
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