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Old 17-05-2015, 04:08   #121
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Says it all really
Some people have something to say and others just want to be heard.

Did you have something to say?
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Old 17-05-2015, 05:34   #122
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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You could not use the mast as it would be too congested but you could use the shrouds and run the balloons to top of the mast that way but I am useless at doing knots in balloons and run out of puff after a couple.

I would just run back and forward on the top like Jack Sparrow did. That worked.

Joking aside there is some merit in what Juho says if you could get a big lift bag being pulled down against a shroud somehow.

But I would use big water bags kept underneath and would put these out side of one hull then attach one end of my carbon fibre rope that I also keep under the bridge deck to the bags and the ends to the other side of the hull then would winch them on board evenly using my pulley ratchets. I am right in thinking the underneath of the bridge deck is a cats boot, trunk for you Americans where you keep your tools? 4 x 5 cubic metre bags should do the trick.
In addition to all that, I would not leave my life raft and dinghy unused. One of the rafts could have a winch or a pulley, and it could have a hole in the middle. Or I might cut a hole in the middle of the bottom of my dinghy. Then I would catch a rope coming from the mast top and start turning the boat.

Additional floats might be needed in various places around the boat to keep it stable and floating, especially if (and since) the boat turns out not to be fully watertight. The water bag might be the easiest solution for turning the last 100 degrees.
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Old 17-05-2015, 05:51   #123
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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In addition to all that, I would not leave my life raft and dinghy unused. One of the rafts could have a winch or a pulley, and it could have a hole in the middle. Or I might cut a hole in the middle of the bottom of my dinghy. Then I would catch a rope coming from the mast top and start turning the boat.

Additional floats might be needed in various places around the boat to keep it stable and floating, especially if (and since) the boat turns out not to be fully watertight. The water bag might be the easiest solution for turning the last 100 degrees.
ROFL

The 30ft seas may help you with the last 180 degrees.
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Old 17-05-2015, 06:46   #124
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Could well be.. and the consequence of a sail handling error on a catamaran has greater danger associated with it than a mono?
But the odds of a sail handling error are greater on a mono because of the reduced comfort.
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Old 17-05-2015, 06:48   #125
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Some people have something to say and others just want to be heard.

Did you have something to say?
I agree. Obviously, you already made clear you have no idea what you are talking about and proved it by your follow up comments.

Still waiting on data to back up your original assertion.
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Old 17-05-2015, 07:02   #126
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Some people have something to say and others just want to be heard.

Did you have something to say?
Yes. And I said it.

To be clear, you say you have no idea and then spend numerous posts arguing with those who demonstrably do have an idea.
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Old 17-05-2015, 07:04   #127
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pirate Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

Any current/past production cat would deep six using the Kelsall method.. just to many holes in the aft bulkheads..
Great theory though.. means serious redesigning of everything internal..

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Old 17-05-2015, 07:04   #128
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

Has anyone seen a video of them righting that gunboat in the Carib? The you tube video shows the capsize and the very last bit of the righting, but not the time in between. I would be surprised if they could right it with just one center console type boat with OBs.
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Old 17-05-2015, 07:10   #129
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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In addition to all that, I would not leave my life raft and dinghy unused. One of the rafts could have a winch or a pulley, and it could have a hole in the middle. Or I might cut a hole in the middle of the bottom of my dinghy. Then I would catch a rope coming from the mast top and start turning the boat.

Additional floats might be needed in various places around the boat to keep it stable and floating, especially if (and since) the boat turns out not to be fully watertight. The water bag might be the easiest solution for turning the last 100 degrees.
Where do you get your rafts from Juho? I like your imagination though but a 5 ton lift bag would be about 4 meters high and 2 meters in diameter and you would need at least two of these to balance your dinghy and attached somehow if you were going to winch up your mast through the center of your rib. You may as well just have one big bag with winch the on the cat bridge deck attached to a purposeful line that had been run up the mast and back down a shroud. I think you would have to kiss good bye to your dink fella.
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Old 17-05-2015, 08:14   #130
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Yes. And I said it.

To be clear, you say you have no idea and then spend numerous posts arguing with those who demonstrably do have an idea.
To be clear I meant I don't keep up with them and have no idea what the developments are hence the Q about safety..

I know what they are and how they work and the design philosophy behind them generically.

I follow football. I don't follow cricket so I don't much about it but I understand the game, what I don't like about it and why. Ok.

I notice people who have cats are so hyper sensitive.. They are just "things" Why do you care what others think or deduce? I don't hate cats but if I did so what - who cares? No one - that's who.
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Old 17-05-2015, 08:28   #131
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Originally Posted by Factor View Post
Yes. And I said it.

To be clear, you say you have no idea and then spend numerous posts arguing with those who demonstrably do have an idea.
Well, at least he is productive:
Joined a month ago and has 264 posts. Impressive.
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Old 17-05-2015, 08:37   #132
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

It only just occurs to me this self righting proposition may indeed be achievable for trimarans by flooding one sponson sufficiently, and using a mast rigged self inflating device. I'm certain there is enough scope in the numbers for this to work and a solution could be engineered.

It has the advantage that the sponsons rarely carry much in weight or within their volume, and so are available for flooding, yet have truss structures strong enough to both hold them or right the boat. It is after all very similar to what they are designed to do.

So it seems, although it may or may not exist, there is this rescue advantage to trimaran configurations over catamarans.
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Old 17-05-2015, 09:05   #133
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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I agree. Obviously, you already made clear you have no idea what you are talking about and proved it by your follow up comments.

Still waiting on data to back up your original assertion.
I backed it up some time ago. I did a like for like quote. We moved on from that subtext of the thread quite a while ago but If you have some retrospective compelling argument or proof to the contrary rather than insult then post it. Hopefully though it will not be an echo of every other manufacturer.

Also you could type the words - Catamaran, Capsize and Dead in google and read what that returns.

Forgive me my own assertions as my family is mine and not yours. "Its ok honey, we can go to the Falklands. valhalla360 says cats are perfectly safe and equal to mono's" - Yeh right.

Maybe the delivery company, Reliance that sent the crew of the 40ft cat "Catshot" into a force 9 and certain death had the same idea as you. Cats, rock solid they are. - Funny they found it overturned in such light winds.
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Old 17-05-2015, 09:22   #134
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Where do you get your rafts from Juho? I like your imagination though but a 5 ton lift bag would be about 4 meters high and 2 meters in diameter and you would need at least two of these to balance your dinghy and attached somehow if you were going to winch up your mast through the center of your rib. You may as well just have one big bag with winch the on the cat bridge deck attached to a purposeful line that had been run up the mast and back down a shroud. I think you would have to kiss good bye to your dink fella.
I would use all available tools. Also the weak ones if they fit in the overall plan of getting the catamaran turned upright. In addition to the water bags, dinghy and life raft I would use whatever weights and emergency floating devices I would have, maybe up to ping-pong balls. Having multiple tools and turning points is actually better than having just one, since the load will be shared between multiple points and tools.

If I don't have enough power to turn the boat right away, I might try keeping only one of the hulls floating and let the other one sink while turning the boat. Not easy though, but I would have time to think and try different methods while living in the life raft or in a tent on top of the bottom of the catamaran (the catamaran might have cleats at the bottom to allow also this).

It's no problem to make a hole in the dinghy since the boat and my life are somewhat more valuable anyway. Actually a patched hole in the middle of my dinghy could be a good bragging point at the seamen's club .
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Old 17-05-2015, 09:37   #135
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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I would use all available tools. Also the weak ones if they fit in the overall plan of getting the catamaran turned upright. In addition to the water bags, dinghy and life raft I would use whatever weights and emergency floating devices I would have, maybe up to ping-pong balls. Having multiple tools and turning points is actually better than having just one, since the load will be shared between multiple points and tools.

If I don't have enough power to turn the boat right away, I might try keeping only one of the hulls floating and let the other one sink while turning the boat. Not easy though, but I would have time to think and try different methods while living in the life raft or in a tent on top of the bottom of the catamaran (the catamaran might have cleats at the bottom to allow also this).

It's no problem to make a hole in the dinghy since the boat and my life are somewhat more valuable anyway. Actually a patched hole in the middle of my dinghy could be a good bragging point at the seamen's club .
Maybe you could set your design in photoshop or something so we can see it. So your raft is the ping pong table you have on board?
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