Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 16-05-2015, 08:24   #76
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: UK/Portugal
Posts: 20,204
Images: 2
Send a message via Skype™ to boatman61
pirate Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulanthony View Post
As soon as I saw the word Bollox I knew I would see boatman61 if I looked up.. and what did I see.. boatman61

I set the same qualification for both cat and mono. When asked for the qualification I entered boatman61 and the computer said no No NO!

I gave them both master yachtsman.
And.. a quick search on the central database would have shown you were not and had never been insured as such..
Is there such a thing as Master Yachtsman..
__________________


Born To Be Wild
boatman61 is online now  
Old 16-05-2015, 08:52   #77
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: UK, Croatia
Boat: Fountaine Pajot Athena 11.6m Rapa Nui II
Posts: 379
Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

I am pretty certain that an auto-inflation masthead buoyancy device was available for a short while in Europe. Can imagine that there are few problems that need thinking about. If it inflates to late, you are inverted which is the most stable position for a cat, and your gas bag is unlikely to be of any use. Too soon, and the windage of your gas bag will probably be the final straw. While you can surely make a fixed float strong enough, securing a bag to prevent it being torn away by the forces would seem problematic.

There does seem to be very little recent collated information on the mechanisms of cat capsize. My guess is that for modern production cat cruisers, very few these days sail over due to too much sail as they are very much wider than previously (possible exception Gemini?), most bury a bow or two and pitchpole. But I do not know and that's the point. We need some analysis of recent capsizes in the same way as the Amateur Yacht Research Society did in the 1969.
__________________

__________________
Rapanui is offline  
Old 16-05-2015, 09:18   #78
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Sydney, Australia and Split Croatia
Boat: Fountaine Pajot Athena 38 and Orana 44
Posts: 13
Send a message via Skype™ to bnizette
Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

There used to be a youtube video of a 38 ft catamaran that was belly up being righted by a dingy with a 9hp motor.

They flipped it end over end. Took a rope from the centre of the bar on the front, threw between the hulls to the aft and then pulled aft to flip it up. The hoisted sails simply cut through the water.

Tried to find the video again but could not. Does seem feasible though.
__________________
bnizette is offline  
Old 16-05-2015, 10:12   #79
med
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 186
Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DotDun View Post
The #1 risk I see in this topic is your confidence in your own abilities to operate a catamaran within it's design parameters in 50kts of wind at high latitudes without a way to recover from flipping it. My only suggestion is you don't attempt to do so. As been suggested in previous posts, it's not the boat, it's how one operates it.
To some extent it is a question of luck whether you get caught in wind of 50kts, 60kts or more.
med is offline  
Old 16-05-2015, 10:24   #80
One of Those
 
Canibul's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Turks and Caicos Islands
Boat: Catalac 12M
Posts: 3,209
Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

Tom Lack bet 10,000 pounds sterling that nobody could flip one of his catamarans or get a photo of one flying a hull. Nobody ever claimed it in 40 years. To answer your next question, so far the best we've done is maintain 8.5 knots for an hour at a time in 18-22 knots across the beam. We can motorsail in lighter winds and pretty much count on 7 knots with sails and one engine on, burning half a gallon per hour. By modern catamaran standards it's not a speedster. But then we didn't get into this to race people. We went for the Winnebago instead of the Corvette.
__________________
Expat life in the Devil's Triangle:
http://2gringos.blogspot.com/
Canibul is offline  
Old 16-05-2015, 10:35   #81
Eternal Member
 
monte's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Australia
Boat: Lagoon 400
Posts: 3,650
Images: 1
Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

Most of the Chris White quotes are taken from part of his advertising speel for his foil mast, twin furling genoa designs so not really applicable. Not that there's anything inherently wrong with those designs. A better source of relevant useful information would be his summary as to why one of his sloop rig design atlantics capsized in a squall, which basically put it down to too much sail up for the conditions and relying on autopilot when handsteering would be more appropriate.
__________________
monte is offline  
Old 16-05-2015, 11:04   #82
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Australia
Boat: Pearson 365
Posts: 312
Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

The 1979 Fastnet Race occurring in admittedly freak weather conditions, out of 303 competitors 5 boats sunk, 100 suffered knock downs, 77 rolled, 24 were abandoned and 15 sailors drowned. Just 85 boats completed the course.

Why is this significant?
After 1979 RORC governing committee made many changes and recommendations with respect to ocean racing with requirements for crews and equipment, and righting moments of boats. Racing safety has improved as a result, but of course it will never be perfect. Also if your boat is earlier than 1979 manufacture, you have something to think about.

One of the first boats proven to be self righting was the Contessa 32, however. Still as it stands very few yachts can claim to be unsinkable. The claim I actually believe in is that made by Etap for their boats, but it seems a sadly lacking statistic. In pursuit of design theory progress as well as individual boat integrity some Brit magazines demonstrate a boats righting ability in calm seas.

I have never heard of a large cat that is self righting, that is not to say it would take considerable effort to knock a large cat over.But I think there would be a way of doing this using the masthead float idea on a biplane rig. Possibly using a wing spar and a float that has enough buoyancy to stop her going right over.



ref 1979 Fastnet Race Inquiry
http://www.blur.se/images/fastnet-race-inquiry.pdf

ref Etap
Etap 28s Sailboat Review | Cruising World

Yachting Monthly test boat capsize
https://youtu.be/Gqe1Sxa2GXo
;,
__________________
ZULU40 is offline  
Old 16-05-2015, 11:22   #83
Registered User
 
Cadence's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: SC
Boat: None,build the one shown of glass, had many from 6' to 48'.
Posts: 6,058
Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulanthony View Post
I do not know a great deal about catamarans except that they make me a little nervous.

I have read the pro catamaran argument that says a cat will not sink if capsized which is all well and good but the probability of a catamaran capsizing far outweighs that of a mono sinking.

I wondered if there is any technology that has dealt with and solved the problem of righting a catamaran hull unaided by external assistance while at sea.
Sure, a sky hook.
__________________
Cadence is offline  
Old 16-05-2015, 11:34   #84
smj
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2007
Boat: Searunner 38 catamaran
Posts: 3,654
Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

This is a decent write up on catamarans. Also there are some interesting facts about catamarans and their potential for capsize at the end of the article.
http://www.cruisingworld.com/sailboa...pulting-future
__________________
smj is online now  
Old 16-05-2015, 11:34   #85
Registered User
 
Cadence's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: SC
Boat: None,build the one shown of glass, had many from 6' to 48'.
Posts: 6,058
Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

Quote:
Originally Posted by monte View Post
Most of the Chris White quotes are taken from part of his advertising speel for his foil mast, twin furling genoa designs so not really applicable. Not that there's anything inherently wrong with those designs. A better source of relevant useful information would be his summary as to why one of his sloop rig design atlantics capsized in a squall, which basically put it down to too much sail up for the conditions and relying on autopilot when handsteering would be more appropriate.
Monte, you nailed it. Has nothing to do with boat size or type. It is reefing before the fact.
Granted in rear conditions it could be sea state. If it is sea state, that causes a turtle, I would want to be on a well ballasted mono, the stiffest one made.
__________________
Cadence is offline  
Old 16-05-2015, 12:44   #86
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 504
Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

Quote:
Originally Posted by monte View Post
Most of the Chris White quotes are taken from part of his advertising speel for his foil mast, twin furling genoa designs so not really applicable. Not that there's anything inherently wrong with those designs. A better source of relevant useful information would be his summary as to why one of his sloop rig design atlantics capsized in a squall, which basically put it down to too much sail up for the conditions and relying on autopilot when handsteering would be more appropriate.
I am not sure monte. I think the rotating mast ketch design idea he had was inspired after another one of his 57's when turtle. (Anna)

I think it disturbed him a lot and inspired some blue sky thinking to try and get away from the main sail. He still advocates cats but if you read between the lines his philosophy seems to be changing. Not sure he has succeeded yet but he is trying. Fair play to the guy.

I would not go off piste with my family on a chris white type cat but I would like to if I could have some extra safety built in which was something other than snipping the maximum canvas or adding ballast.

There was an Alpha 42 that got hurt and it sounds like it stalled through a tack because of a strong headwind and came back on itself and bent its rudders.

Seems with Cats it is either not enough or too much.
__________________
paulanthony is offline  
Old 16-05-2015, 12:53   #87
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Australia
Boat: Pearson 365
Posts: 312
Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canibul View Post
Tom Lack bet 10,000 pounds sterling that nobody could flip one of his catamarans or get a photo of one flying a hull. Nobody ever claimed it in 40 years. To answer your next question, so far the best we've done is maintain 8.5 knots for an hour at a time in 18-22 knots across the beam. We can motorsail in lighter winds and pretty much count on 7 knots with sails and one engine on, burning half a gallon per hour. By modern catamaran standards it's not a speedster. But then we didn't get into this to race people. We went for the Winnebago instead of the Corvette.
he also had 800+mm bridgedeck clearance, the problem these days is that no standing headroom in pocket cruisers just inst an acceptable marketing position, and for a business proposition as a builder you would go broke trying it.

On a more positive note, I think more emphasis could be put into anti-slamming as a technology. Refining clearance with asymmetric hulls, hull chines, venturi effect air water ducting and hull aperture sockets might just make a better compromise enabling boat lengths in the low 30s to become a viable offshore alternative. Well maybe...
__________________
ZULU40 is offline  
Old 16-05-2015, 13:04   #88
Registered User

Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 504
Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZULU40 View Post
The 1979 Fastnet Race occurring in admittedly freak weather conditions, out of 303 competitors 5 boats sunk, 100 suffered knock downs, 77 rolled, 24 were abandoned and 15 sailors drowned. Just 85 boats completed the course.

Why is this significant?
After 1979 RORC governing committee made many changes and recommendations with respect to ocean racing with requirements for crews and equipment, and righting moments of boats. Racing safety has improved as a result, but of course it will never be perfect. Also if your boat is earlier than 1979 manufacture, you have something to think about.

One of the first boats proven to be self righting was the Contessa 32, however. Still as it stands very few yachts can claim to be unsinkable. The claim I actually believe in is that made by Etap for their boats, but it seems a sadly lacking statistic. In pursuit of design theory progress as well as individual boat integrity some Brit magazines demonstrate a boats righting ability in calm seas.

I have never heard of a large cat that is self righting, that is not to say it would take considerable effort to knock a large cat over.But I think there would be a way of doing this using the masthead float idea on a biplane rig. Possibly using a wing spar and a float that has enough buoyancy to stop her going right over.



ref 1979 Fastnet Race Inquiry
http://www.blur.se/images/fastnet-race-inquiry.pdf

ref Etap
Etap 28s Sailboat Review | Cruising World

Yachting Monthly test boat capsize
https://youtu.be/Gqe1Sxa2GXo
;,
I could be wrong on this but I think the cat sector is very polarised. It seems to me to consist of either fast glory boy cats that can go over the edge quite easily or leisure cats that sit too far back from the edge with their wings clipped because there is no inexpensive safety tech that lets them get closer. Let me just say IMHO before I have people shouting at me.
__________________
paulanthony is offline  
Old 16-05-2015, 13:08   #89
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: BC ,Canada
Boat: cheoy lee 43 pilothouse
Posts: 9
Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

for the epic Golden Globe Race, Donald Crowhurst had developped a righting. system..he became so obsess about flipping it in the roaring forty that he jumped overboard instead of going to the 40's!!!??
i guess that solved any problem of flipping it...!!!??
very good read.

boats have no eyes and brain, so they usually make it...in most cases...! but with fear and human error the story end-up differently.

anyway a bad day at sea is a bad a sea, what ever is your ride.

sorry for saying not much with this all....
__________________
oceane is offline  
Old 16-05-2015, 13:46   #90
med
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 186
Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulanthony View Post
I could be wrong on this but I think the cat sector is very polarised. It seems to me to consist of either fast glory boy cats that can go over the edge quite easily or leisure cats that sit too far back from the edge with their wings clipped because there is no inexpensive safety tech that lets them get closer. Let me just say IMHO before I have people shouting at me.
Outremer does a "light" version which may be has its wings clipped a little less than most cruising cats.

http://www.catamaran-outremer.com/en...remer-55-light
__________________

med is offline  
Closed Thread

Tags
catamaran, cruising, size

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
One of those hey there, hi there, ho there posts Noreasta Meets & Greets 13 25-09-2013 12:44
Which Catamaran is Right for You, Right for Me? betachz Multihull Sailboats 28 01-01-2009 11:23
Is there less people cruising than there was 3 years ago? Lynx General Sailing Forum 8 16-12-2007 21:32
no right way, right? unbusted67 Seamanship & Boat Handling 4 16-12-2006 19:10



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:53.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.