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Old 16-05-2015, 05:27   #61
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Originally Posted by leftbrainstuff View Post
No. It's simple physics.

I'd be wary of the unsinkable catamaran claims. The recent gunboat rainmaker loss has demonstrated clearly the difference between marketing weasel words and untested hypotheses.

I suspect your real concerns relate more broadly to survivability and self recovery. I've posted engineering responses on these topics in numerous posts.

There are some good texts on the topic of heavy weather sailing. Shout out if you're interested and I'll post the titles. They are based on analysis of empirical data that is correlated with engineering analysis. I'd recommend you read them so that you can understand the issues and risks.

Many of the government reports of vessel losses also are worth reading.

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Sure.. post the titles.. I will enjoy reading them. Thanks.
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Old 16-05-2015, 05:46   #62
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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I would like to see that data please (just like a couple of folks before me).

So far you have only posted some prosa from Chris White and a screenshot about insurers not wanting to take some unspecified risk.


IF you have really done that sort of "homework" yourself please share the exact figures about capsized cat vs sunken monos.
If you don't I consider your arguments to be just hot air.


If you had taken the time to get that deep into the problem you were well aware that there is no such device on the market suiteable for a serious cruising cat.
So why do you ask? Just buy a mono and be happy with your choice.


It seems you are here for the fun and maybe trying to trash all cats in general on the flipping-argument.
For the later you are a few decades too late
Fella, it is my assertion on a thread I started as a subtext to safety tech. If you disagree show your own evidence to the contrary. If you think we should dismiss the words from Chris White and consider an insurance response as some technical glitch then so be it. However, you could apply your own knowledge and accept that a cat does not plot negative on a stability curve and recognise what this means.

Trash all cats?.. I don't think I have attempted to trash one! - I like cats.

I have a suggestion for you. Move on if what you read perturbs you so much. That is what I do. Your implication is I am some kind of troll. If this is your suspicion why hang around?
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Old 16-05-2015, 06:04   #63
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Someone asked about the efficacy of the masthead float. The Sailcraft Iroquois we owned had one. There were several recorded instances of capsizes where the boat stayed on its side and were then righted subsequently with the use of launches etc. You would need to do the calc to see how much the windage of the float contributed to the capsize. These boats were narrow beam of 14 ft on 30ft OAL.
One main reason for Iroquois capsizes was the very large masthead genoa which could be 200% of the main. Try releasing that in a gust in a hurry and the chances and consequences of a riding turn becomes major issue. So while I have a lot of respect for Chris White and there is some truth in the fact that large roached fully battened mains being harder to handle, the alternative of having a larger fore triangle(s) can be equally dangerous in my view. Extracting Chris' comment re roached mains in isolation does not analyse the contribution of the whole sailplan to capsize.
Is it in use here?



Seems quite effective.
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Old 16-05-2015, 06:10   #64
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Loada Bollox... what you fail to take into account is that the insurer is evaluating your capabilities as much if not more than the boat your insuring..
The less 'Proven Experience' the higher your premium..
Its not the boat.. its the driver..
As soon as I saw the word Bollox I knew I would see boatman61 if I looked up.. and what did I see.. boatman61

I set the same qualification for both cat and mono. When asked for the qualification I entered boatman61 and the computer said no No NO!

I gave them both master yachtsman.
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Old 16-05-2015, 06:23   #65
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Originally Posted by paulanthony View Post
Fella, you are boring me a bit. It is my assertion on a thread I started as a subtext to safety tech. If you disagree show your own evidence to the contrary. If you think we should dismiss the words from Chris White and consider an insurance response as some technical glitch then so be it. However, you could apply your own knowledge and accept that a cat does not plot negative on a stability curve and recognise what this means.

Trash all cats?.. I don't think I have attempted to trash one I like cats.

I have a suggestion for you. Move on if what you read perturbs you so much. That is what I do.
I'm curious? Do you fly on airplanes?

Using your methodology of reasoning, I would guess you decline to fly due to the probability of falling out of the sky being far greater in an airplane than trains and automobiles! All are modes of transportation that cover varying use cases just like monohulls vs. catamarans.

If your envisioned usage of a boat is 50+kts winds and high latitudes, forget a plastic sail boat and buy a steel trawler - something fitted for the task.

If you are going to be a puppet of the insurance industry, you'll end up not owning a boat at all.

Yep! Catamarans are different than monohulls, just like helicopters are different than fixed-wing airplanes. Different operating procedures, but neither less suitable for their respective designed-for use case.

BTW, here is a statistical outlier:
Antarctica 2015 expedition: key take-aways | NW Passage
Maybe you can ask if and how much his insurance costs! (Oh my, he may not even have insurance - does that mean his boat is now worthy of operating in high latitudes???)
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Old 16-05-2015, 06:36   #66
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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I'm curious? Do you fly on airplanes?

Using your methodology of reasoning, I would guess you decline to fly due to the probability of falling out of the sky being far greater in an airplane than trains and automobiles! All are modes of transportation that cover varying use cases just like monohulls vs. catamarans.

If your envisioned usage of a boat is 50+kts winds and high latitudes, forget a plastic sail boat and buy a steel trawler - something fitted for the task.

If you are going to be a puppet of the insurance industry, you'll end up not owning a boat at all.

Yep! Catamarans are different than monohulls, just like helicopters are different than fixed-wing airplanes. Different operating procedures, but neither less suitable for their respective designed-for use case.

BTW, here is a statistical outlier:
Antarctica 2015 expedition: key take-aways | NW Passage
Maybe you can ask if and how much his insurance costs! (Oh my, he may not even have insurance - does that mean his boat is now worthy of operating in high latitudes???)
Well, thank you.. You have kind of endorsed the assertion of the thread. So how would you go about making a cat as risk capable as a mono then so it can venture into some of those designed for cases such as the mono?
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Old 16-05-2015, 06:37   #67
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

Yes, looks like an Iroquois on its side with float doing its job. Note the deck is close to vertical so it would not take much to be bounced back upright by a wave. Note also there is no main just a storm or very small jib so I guess it pitchpoled. These days, many people would deploy a drogue or parachute to stop that occurring as Monte said.
Wider beam cats would need a much larger mast head float and given the majority of 3/4 rigged cats, the mast stressed for the anticipated bending load from the float.
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Old 16-05-2015, 07:08   #68
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

The Sundreamer looks hard to capsize
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Old 16-05-2015, 07:12   #69
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

I would like to make 1 point to contributors to this really interesting thread. If it's to be any use, there is no sense in personal abuse, just contribute your knowledge and views, clearly delineating between each. To paraphrase 'I don't agree with your views, but respect your right to hold them'

The comparitive risk and hazard analysis between monos and cats is quite complex. Capsize is only one factor I consider when venturing out off solid land. For example, my wife and I have converted 2 non sailing or very sea sick wives ( I am sure that other genders are similarly affected) into enjoying sailing by demonstrating reduced or eliminated sickness sailing our cat.

Another factor which seems not to have been discussed is the supposed resistance of monos to capsize and recovery. Many boats, particularly modern beamier monos, have negative righting moment when the mast is flat on the water. They have been known to invert or stayed knocked down for some time even with their keels. In these circumstances, you need to investigate the downflooding that could occur unless the boat is sealed shut. Engine air intakes, heating intakes and exhausts, hatches, ventilators, companionway doors/hatchboards etc. Take the example someone quoted of zero wind to 50kts in a matter of seconds, how many monos would have full watertight integrity in that circumstance?

We now sail in the Adriatic. Mostly winds are benign, but probably more than anywhere else, it is noted for sudden blasts of extremely strong wind from the Bora and Tramontana. We have recorded 63 kts of wind (fortunately tied to a solid chunk of masonry) that came from nothing within seconds. This is probably the most common extreme danger that boats here face. And yet, there are thousands of charter boats here in use for 6 months each year, many of which are cats, which you can hire on the basis of an ICC and no experience (which clearly many have). Despite this recipe for disaster, there are very few serious incidents, which I attribute to be because there is quite a contribution from the design of the boats being very forgiving, be it cat or mono.
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Old 16-05-2015, 07:14   #70
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Yes, looks like an Iroquois on its side with float doing its job. Note the deck is close to vertical so it would not take much to be bounced back upright by a wave. Note also there is no main just a storm or very small jib so I guess it pitchpoled. These days, many people would deploy a drogue or parachute to stop that occurring as Monte said.
Wider beam cats would need a much larger mast head float and given the majority of 3/4 rigged cats, the mast stressed for the anticipated bending load from the float.
I can imagine that the engineers as you say would definitely have a much harder job making a mast and rig strong enough to cope with wider beams. However, since that picture was taken, technology has come along way. I think they could do it but it is probably cost prohibitive. No one wanted to pay for air bags in their car until it was made compulsory.

You could get rid of a static float and use compressed air or even a lighter gas but it is going to be a one time event only till back at base for a reset.

I would feel much more secure knowing I had something like this in my defence kit. Maybe the industry is being lazy in not developing it. But while there are back orders for cats I guess they have no motivation to do so which is a reason why maybe owners of cats should not keep echoing their sales pitch all the time.

I am quite impressed with that picture really. The leverage provided at the top end of the mast is clearly a winner if you can make the whole thing work holistically.
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Old 16-05-2015, 07:26   #71
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the gougeon brothers' system. Really cool video of it on YouTube that I can't find right now. Basically the last was on a ball joint similar to a hobie cat, as I recall, and by moving the mast one could right the boat. Not cruising cat size, but probably the best you're going to get.


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Old 16-05-2015, 07:32   #72
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Originally Posted by paulanthony View Post
Sure just go to any brokerage site add like for like and as you increase your range you will see insurance for cats is not available or more expensive as I have done here.

Screenshot by Lightshot

They use wind data and wave data for a given area within the risk assessment. If a catamaran was literally impossible to flip you would expects to see a difference in the insurance premium - true? So why do you expect to see it the same for a mono.

Going outside the normal cruising grounds has greater risk for cats and for the life of me I can not understand anyone who would think otherwise.

Seriously who is at greater risk in a sudden squall? I will post an excerpt from Chris White yet again....

"Most sailors agree that the mainsail, particularly the large roached, full battened mainsail combined with the aft-led-shroud, no-backstay-configuration that is used in most catamarans today, is by far the most troublesome sail to hoist, reef/unreef, furl and cover. In addition, mainsails create significant safety liabilities because they cannot be easily or quickly reefed or furled when sailing downwind. In violent squalls this feature has caused more than a few capsizes. The conventional catamaran mainsail can also be somewhat risky to gybe in a blow."

Wind speed is squared. The only way you can keep a cat from flipping in a sudden 50 knots is to design the rig way too small so it can be kept safe from the unexpected and within the righting moment limit. Outside the normal cruising grounds you can expect to see weird and aggressive squalls. We see this under rating in many "cruising" cats designs especially in the cats operated by charter companies.
.
If charter companies started using "normal" rigs their fleet insurance cost would go through the roof.

A safe catamaran is one that is either underpowered by design or so heavy it would need a tornado to blow it over. (Not really a sail boat)

If you really think the Polynesians were not losing boats you need to do some research yourself. They ran a triangle and hopped between weather systems island to island. Do you ever wonder why they never went out of that triangle?

Cats are great but this near evangelical movement that keeps saying they are are de-facto super safe is wearing thin. They are designed safe. In most part their potential is locked away and when it is allowed to come out we see accident and incident and this is what my question seeks to address.. What tech is out there that enables the unlocking of potential whilst staying safe.

p.s In that link above those companies declining insurance for cats do offer insurance for cats against normal latitudes.
"If you do your homework properly you will see that I am right. Get the values for all the mono's in the world v's cats. Then narrow down the cruising ranges to include places common to cats and mono's and then determine the number of losses via sinking compared to cats flipping. Then extrapolate the numbers of cats to that of mono's, determine like for like probability then come back and say sorry. - Or just answer the question as I asked and leave the biting for kids, lesser animals and insects. "

mate, I would just like to see the data you imply you have in your early statement. I am not going to do a bunch of 'homework', either you have it or you don't. The list of insurance stuff you pasted is not the data you referred to. By the way I don't own a cat.
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Old 16-05-2015, 07:38   #73
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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This is the 2013 recreational boating statistics report from USCG:

http://www.uscgboating.org/assets/1/...atingStats.pdf

They do one every year, it includes all accidents the USCG Responds to and all state agency reported statistics. For 2013, there were a total of 9 sailboat capsizes of any type which resulted in injury or death. This includes sail dinghies. A total of 8 fatalities were reported for the year.

Capsizes for sailboats were 97% <26 feet, and 3% > 26 feet in length.

I browsed through previous years and noted that the statistics are very similar year to year.

140,000 thousand sailboats have been sold in the years 2000-2013: ‚ÄĘ Number of sailboats sold in the U.S. 2000-2013 | Statistic

I'll hazard a guess, based on the slope of the sailboat sales trend, that sales were better than that in prior decades, but if we just take the average of 15,000 sailboats per year sold back two decades and presume that no sailboats existed before that, then there are about 450,000 sailboats in the US. So. From 1980 to 2013, we have about 450,000 sailboats, of which about 330 have capsized. That's a capsize rate of 0.007%. Multiplying that by the 3% rate for sailboats >26 feet, and you've got 22 out of a million.

It's a completely inconsequential problem irrespective of type of sailboat. We just hear about all of them globally on this forum, and people get their perspectives warped by anecdotes instead of by actual risk.

The reason nobody can find hard statistics on monohull capsizes vs. catamaran capsizes is that it occurs so rarely that useful statistics cannot exist. You have to have about 100 incidents of comparable types in order for statistics to start having more "signal" than "noise"--and there just aren't enough capsize incidents for that to happen. That's why all these irrational arguments are exactly that: noise.

Also, 88% of all boat accidents were operator error, 11% all other causes. If you know what you're doing, and you're involved in a cruising sailboat capsize, you're literally 3 in a million.

Buy the boat you want, learn it inside and out, never beat to weather, and don't worry about capsize. It's never going to happen to you.


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Thanks for chasing this data, too bad the original poster wouldn't add any data to substantiate the assertions. I think you sum up the whole thing in your last sentence !
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Old 16-05-2015, 07:42   #74
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Well, thank you.. You have kind of endorsed the assertion of the thread. So how would you go about making a cat as risk capable as a mono then so it can venture into some of those designed for cases such as the mono?
The point of my post is to try to demonstrate the absurdity of using insurance industry risk calculations as a gauge to suitability for the task. You then couple that with operational considerations pointed out by a catamaran expert inferring that you would not be able to operate a catamaran within such parameters.

Example: you could use the best engineering design practices to add wings and propeller to your car. It could turnout to the best/safest flying machine ever built. And yet, no insurance company would cover it. Does that now make the technically best/safest flying machine ever built less worthy for the task at hand?

I don't look at risk through insurance industry glasses. I use engineering glasses to examine the physics of the machine to determine if it fits the use case, coupled with my own abilities/desire to operate it within the design parameters. Just because there is no discoverable statistical significance to gauge risk for the insurance industry doesn't diminish the physical suitability to task. Remember, insurance companies are simply leeches on your wallet, their aversion to giving money back is their number 1 priority.

The #1 risk I see in this topic is your confidence in your own abilities to operate a catamaran within it's design parameters in 50kts of wind at high latitudes without a way to recover from flipping it. My only suggestion is you don't attempt to do so. As been suggested in previous posts, it's not the boat, it's how one operates it.
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Old 16-05-2015, 08:08   #75
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Excellent reasoning based on facts. This should put 99.9% of all discussions to rest. But at least it confirms my not so well informed impression. Thank you.

Second that, thanks mstrbe.
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