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Old 22-05-2015, 13:28   #436
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Originally Posted by paulanthony View Post
Now lets apply some basic trig to see what size wave will produce a 16 foot slope at 55 degrees. Ding dong la de da%$!. The computer says a 12 and a half foot wave. That is just a smidgen over the average wave height of all the worlds oceans.
Be careful, Paul. What wave period is this 12 foot wave? Simply stated, there are 12 foot breaking waves and there are 12 foot rolling swells. 12 foot breaking waves on a beach are one thing, but 12 foot (long period) swells in the open ocean are not the least bit threatening and don't come any where close to producing a 55* slope.

Dave
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Old 22-05-2015, 14:00   #437
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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I find the solutions very innovative but there is a simpler one: you just take a plain, standard, no-gadgets catamaran without any no-flip devices and then restrict your cruising area to down under only. You see, it's all upside-down there so even inverted, you technically are in the same orientation as the cats in the northern hemisphere that are not flipped (yet).
So do you think it is a good idea then that it be suggested to the advocates of capsize aversion beyond 90 degrees rather than full invert be recommended to stick to sailing around Hawaii then?
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Old 22-05-2015, 14:08   #438
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Be careful, Paul. What wave period is this 12 foot wave? Simply stated, there are 12 foot breaking waves and there are 12 foot rolling swells. 12 foot breaking waves on a beach are one thing, but 12 foot (long period) swells in the open ocean are not the least bit threatening and don't come any where close to producing a 55* slope.

Dave
Just a retort my side really. Just ignore it Dave.. It is hard to keep turning the other cheek even for mild mannered little o'l me.
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Old 22-05-2015, 14:57   #439
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

[QUOTE=s/v Jedi;1831116]I find the solutions very innovative but there is a simpler one: you just take a plain, standard, no-gadgets catamaran without any no-flip devices and then restrict your cruising area to down under only. You see, it's all upside-down there so even inverted, you technically are in the same orientation as the cats in the northern hemisphere that are not flipped (yet).

This solution was discussed before and some remarked that may be the picture was for light wind conditions when the current is faster than the wind and thus it makes more sense to stick not only the mast down, but deployed sails as well!

There is one catch: you still need the escape hatches in the bottom as clearly illustrated by the guy down under there because without them you would be forced to be upside-down all the time.


This size that has been dinked that you showed is a size that I might like. I am quite partial to the Rapier 400.. yet I think it would just a matter of time before it goes over. It is too risky in my opinion because we always dabble with the limits. Well I know I do, but if it had a get out jail free card then it is a whole different proposition.

RAPIER 400 – the Future of Performance Cruising | BROADBLUE
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Old 22-05-2015, 15:46   #440
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Originally Posted by paulanthony View Post
Ok rabbi, if you wana be clever lets be a little bit clever. Lets take your boat as a case point. It has I am thinking a BCL of about 16 foot.

Next, lets see where the average stability lines cross over on your cat v's a mono. Seems to be about 55 degrees when your boat gives up its righting ability and starts to press down and trip over itself where by comparison the mono's maximum resistant starts to kicks in.. (I do hate these comparisons but you do seem to like them so much) Seems you are safe at 55 degrees(just about)
Ah, a pissing contest on steroids.

Normally I like that idea but I'm preparing to leave tomorrow morning. No worries, even thought its a short "offshore" hop (110nm) the forecast is just F1-F3 so with a reef or two I should be OK. And it's not my Mahe but a slightly wider cat so better safety margin. If everything goes wrong I'll call the cavalry to lift me off.


So bear with me that I won't dig out programs to calculate stability figures for a cat (I don't care how it compares to a mono as I don't have one. I'll leave that to those who care)
Even though I think you have no idea where the center of gravity is for a Mahe I just accept your 55 degree figure as fact. It's a figure that doesn't matter to me anyway.

In serious conditions with breaking waves I would suggest not to take seas from the side. I'd deploy my JSD to keep her running slowly. Of course many will not agree but thats my chosen tactic unless I'm in a lee shore condition. So please do the math again for LWL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulanthony View Post
Now lets apply some basic trig to see what size wave will produce a 16 foot slope at 55 degrees. Ding dong la de da%$!. The computer says a 12 and a half foot wave. That is just a smidgen over the average wave height of all the worlds oceans. That's a mean height of the size of you standing up from the waves centreline.
Holy ****. Is this a breaking 12ft wave? If thats the case I am in deep trouble because a 12ft breaking wave means I am almost on the beach.

Otherwise I would just relax and enjoy the sail. 12ft is what you can expect in a fully developed F6. Offshore a 12ft wave in has a typical minimum period of what? Maybe 10 seconds or so? That's certainly not steep.
Maybe its another story for a 12ft wave in a strong current vs. wind situation or if near shore in a F10-F12 with very short fetch. I never had this so can't speak of 1st hand experience.

Depending on the boat beating into F6 can be loud and/or wet but its not life threatening. Dead downwind on a cat with a twin foresail (I think this is called a twizzle rig) it's tradewind sailing at it's best. Moving with the waves extends the wave period even more, making for a slow elevator-like up and down movement. These are the joyful moments of an ocean crossing.

Maybe you are right and I am constantly on the edge of desaster. If so I actually like it (no, I'm not a super strong sailor-hero. my wife and children like it, too).
More likely your wave model is just plain wrong.

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Originally Posted by paulanthony View Post
It kind of means you can't go anywhere in your boat rabbi. Now I start to get your drift why you hate mono's so much.

Yeh mono's are crap if you insist but you would not see me going off piste in your catamaran that's for sure. - unless of course it had some fanciful tech.

May I ask why you bought it? Good deal on a coffee maker or something.
Please don't tell me what I hate. Read my posts. I like anything that floats including monos - just because I own a cat does not mean I have anything against a mono. Should I hate cars just because I own a motorcyle? Why should I care? If the folks on a mono like them fine! As long as the boat is not plain ugly and blocking my sunset view it doesn't bother me at all.
What I don't like is folks who blather against cats who have no clue what they are talking about. You are putting it into disguise of asking a presuambly innocent question and elaborating lengthy "solutions" but at the end you are just spreading FUD.

My boat has nothing to offer for someone like you. Not even a coffee maker. There is nothing to satisfy your desire to right it after a 12ft freak wave has flipped it. Now if you come up with a clever solution that requires just a coffee maker to right her after capsize I might buy one (dual use).

Why have I bought my boat? Well, it sails quite well. Like you I have tried a computer but they just don't float well enough to keep me dry. So I bouht a boat.


My Mahe is certainly not a go-anywhere boat. Its a budget crusing cat for coastal crusing and limited offshore use.
Would I take my Mahe across an ocean? Depends on the ocean, the direction and time of the year.
Med to Carib between Dec and Feb? Yes!
Same time other way round? Not even with the nicest forecast!
High latitude? Heck why should I?? I go sailing to escape the cold.

Finally just for the fun of teasing: si tacuisses philosophus mansisses



Since I'll be offline for the next few days enjoying a sail and a few islands in greece I would like you to do me a favour:

Could you possibly get back on this one?
Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbi View Post
I think others have asked before: Would you mind to share your sailing experience with us? Have you ever been offshore for a few days or more? In anything above F5?
And if you don't mind please show the data you have to back your assertion on page 1
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Originally Posted by paulanthony View Post
If you do your homework properly you will see that I am right. Get the values for all the mono's in the world v's cats. Then narrow down the cruising ranges to include places common to cats and mono's and then determine the number of losses via sinking compared to cats flipping. Then extrapolate the numbers of cats to that of mono's, determine like for like probability then come back and say sorry.
Or just pretend your dog has eaten your homework!


I hope to see this thread still alive on my return! Have fun!

*gone sailing*
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Old 22-05-2015, 15:52   #441
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Originally Posted by paulanthony View Post
I am quite partial to the Rapier 400.. yet I think it would just a matter of time before it goes over. It is too risky in my opinion because we always dabble with the limits. Well I know I do, but if it had a get out jail free card then it is a whole different proposition.
And that jail free card is more likely to kill you because you take more risks.

That falls under "application for the darwin award"
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Old 22-05-2015, 15:53   #442
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

If you think self-righting ability is a get of jail free card, you need to talk to someone who has rolled 360'!


A couple I used to know got rolled 360 in Bass strait, he fractured his skull and broke an arm, IIRC his wife broke a collar bone and a leg, they needed rescuing.


Then there's extensive, probably disabling, boat damage...


Prevention is better.
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Old 22-05-2015, 16:02   #443
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

Actually a guy on CF rolled his cat 360 in the last Queensland cyclone. Search the threads for the data
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Old 22-05-2015, 16:11   #444
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Otherwise I would just relax and enjoy the sail. 12ft is what you can expect in a fully developed F6. Offshore a 12ft wave in has a typical minimum period of what? Maybe 10 seconds or so? That's certainly not steep.
I just checked some references and maybe I'm a bit off.
According to "basic wave theory review" by Graham Warren a full F6 generates waves around 11ft with a period of ~8 seconds

According to "handling storms at sea" by Hal Roth its more 13.8ft and 9.5 secs

But not too far off.

Good night!
finally *gone sleeping & then sailing*
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Old 22-05-2015, 16:22   #445
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Actually a guy on CF rolled his cat 360 in the last Queensland cyclone. Search the threads for the data
Ian R He ws in mangroves at Shoalwater Bay in a smallish cat.

Aussie Cyclones
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Old 22-05-2015, 16:30   #446
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Ian R He ws in mangroves at Shoalwater Bay in a smallish cat.

Aussie Cyclones
Any news on Ian since he got out?
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Old 22-05-2015, 16:48   #447
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Originally Posted by rabbi View Post
I just checked some references and maybe I'm a bit off.
According to "basic wave theory review" by Graham Warren a full F6 generates waves around 11ft with a period of ~8 seconds

According to "handling storms at sea" by Hal Roth its more 13.8ft and 9.5 secs

But not too far off.

Good night!
finally *gone sleeping & then sailing*
You and I have pretty much been on the same page. I don't think wind is the sole factor for wave size and period. Those shallow places can produce some nasty stuff, I'd rather have deep water under my keel/s.
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Old 22-05-2015, 16:57   #448
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Ah, a pissing contest on steroids.

Normally I like that idea but I'm preparing to leave tomorrow morning. No worries, even thought its a short "offshore" hop (110nm) the forecast is just F1-F3 so with a reef or two I should be OK. And it's not my Mahe but a slightly wider cat so better safety margin. If everything goes wrong I'll call the cavalry to lift me off.


So bear with me that I won't dig out programs to calculate stability figures for a cat (I don't care how it compares to a mono as I don't have one. I'll leave that to those who care)
Even though I think you have no idea where the center of gravity is for a Mahe I just accept your 55 degree figure as fact. It's a figure that doesn't matter to me anyway.

In serious conditions with breaking waves I would suggest not to take seas from the side. I'd deploy my JSD to keep her running slowly. Of course many will not agree but thats my chosen tactic unless I'm in a lee shore condition. So please do the math again for LWL.


Holy ****. Is this a breaking 12ft wave? If thats the case I am in deep trouble because a 12ft breaking wave means I am almost on the beach.

Otherwise I would just relax and enjoy the sail. 12ft is what you can expect in a fully developed F6. Offshore a 12ft wave in has a typical minimum period of what? Maybe 10 seconds or so? That's certainly not steep.
Maybe its another story for a 12ft wave in a strong current vs. wind situation or if near shore in a F10-F12 with very short fetch. I never had this so can't speak of 1st hand experience.

Depending on the boat beating into F6 can be loud and/or wet but its not life threatening. Dead downwind on a cat with a twin foresail (I think this is called a twizzle rig) it's tradewind sailing at it's best. Moving with the waves extends the wave period even more, making for a slow elevator-like up and down movement. These are the joyful moments of an ocean crossing.

Maybe you are right and I am constantly on the edge of desaster. If so I actually like it (no, I'm not a super strong sailor-hero. my wife and children like it, too).
More likely your wave model is just plain wrong.



Please don't tell me what I hate. Read my posts. I like anything that floats including monos - just because I own a cat does not mean I have anything against a mono. Should I hate cars just because I own a motorcyle? Why should I care? If the folks on a mono like them fine! As long as the boat is not plain ugly and blocking my sunset view it doesn't bother me at all.
What I don't like is folks who blather against cats who have no clue what they are talking about. You are putting it into disguise of asking a presuambly innocent question and elaborating lengthy "solutions" but at the end you are just spreading FUD.

My boat has nothing to offer for someone like you. Not even a coffee maker. There is nothing to satisfy your desire to right it after a 12ft freak wave has flipped it. Now if you come up with a clever solution that requires just a coffee maker to right her after capsize I might buy one (dual use).

Why have I bought my boat? Well, it sails quite well. Like you I have tried a computer but they just don't float well enough to keep me dry. So I bouht a boat.


My Mahe is certainly not a go-anywhere boat. Its a budget crusing cat for coastal crusing and limited offshore use.
Would I take my Mahe across an ocean? Depends on the ocean, the direction and time of the year.
Med to Carib between Dec and Feb? Yes!
Same time other way round? Not even with the nicest forecast!
High latitude? Heck why should I?? I go sailing to escape the cold.

Finally just for the fun of teasing: si tacuisses philosophus mansisses



Since I'll be offline for the next few days enjoying a sail and a few islands in greece I would like you to do me a favour:

Could you possibly get back on this one?


And if you don't mind please show the data you have to back your assertion on page 1

Or just pretend your dog has eaten your homework!


I hope to see this thread still alive on my return! Have fun!

*gone sailing*
Somehow I just knew my little retort would sting. You are very predictable rabbi. Yes you have a nice boat. (not being sarcastic either) It is nice so don't be offended.
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Old 22-05-2015, 17:19   #449
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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You are starting to get insulting.

So far we haven't called you anything but obviously inexperienced so please ...
Dude... if you go back through your posts nearly every one of them is insulting or dismissive or condescending or superior.

I have suggested to you several times if you don't like the subject matter or you think it is too blue sky for your conservative values then engage with another thread that is more suitable for you. Why you want to loiter around something that you think is crazy and ridicule it rather than be involved in a thread you like makes me wonder who is crazy.

There were others here that were directly involved in this tech and are working on solutions, also people with similar concerns and interest but you feel you are able to be rudely dismissive coz you have a 36 foot boat. Be involved, give constructive criticism, consideration, your view. But not personal ridicule either direct or implied through the idea or if you must then do it once then..(choose your own word here)

Alles Klar?
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Old 22-05-2015, 17:38   #450
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Originally Posted by paulanthony View Post
Dude... if you go back through your posts nearly every one of them is insulting or dismissive or condescending or superior.

I have suggested to you several times if you don't like the subject matter or you think it is too blue sky for your conservative values then engage with another thread that is more suitable for you. Why you want to loiter around something that you think is crazy and ridicule it rather than be involved in a thread you like makes me wonder who is crazy.

There were others here that were directly involved in this tech and are working on solutions, also people with similar concerns and interest but you feel you are able to be rudely dismissive coz you have a 36 foot boat. Be involved, give constructive criticism, consideration, your view. But not personal ridicule either direct or implied through the idea or if you must then do it once then..(choose your own word here)

Alles Klar?
Boy that was a rude response to rabbi. I think you owe him an apology, Dude
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