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Old 15-05-2015, 16:40   #31
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Originally Posted by paulanthony View Post
You are completely wrong. Go and get a quote to sail to the artic in a 40 foot cat and a quote for the same journey in a mono. For the same values from the same company.
If they indeed quote a higher price for a cat than a mono, this probably reflects more on hull material and thickness than on number of hulls. For a trip to the Arctic or the NW passage where one is likely to encounter ice, I expect an insurance company might favor a steel hulled mono over a composite hull cat. Apples and hubcaps.

Back in the day there were some attempts at designing multihulls that had the capacity for self righting. I recall one trimaran design that was launched upside down and then righted before carrying on. In the end though, I believe most designers concluded that the risks of capsize were so low and so preventable that they focused their efforts elsewhere. If you feel a cat is right for you then by all means get a cat, sail conservatively and you should be fine, even in high latitudes. But don't hit any ice.
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Old 15-05-2015, 16:49   #32
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Racing cats and mono's have the same under writing risk curve. Cruisers do not. I have given you a determining body and if you do not believe me then give Lloyds a call or speak to a physics and maths teacher to determine your own probability curve.

Quite frankly I am not concerned what you believe as it is not poignant to my question.

You are quite free to reference some famous research yourself. Preferably though not from catamaran weekly.

You are not as secure like for like on the marginals. If you think you are then fine.

Mind boggles.

Sorry, wrong again! When we purchased our first cruising catamaran 23 years ago we insured with Lloyds Of London. They told me their rates were lower for the catamaran as they considered it a better risk.
Now come on show me some links. All I hear is the sound of your lips flapping a million miles an hour with nothing to back it up. And no links from monohull weekly:
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Old 15-05-2015, 16:57   #33
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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If they indeed quote a higher price for a cat than a mono, this probably reflects more on hull material and thickness than on number of hulls. For a trip to the Arctic or the NW passage where one is likely to encounter ice, I expect an insurance company might favor a steel hulled mono over a composite hull cat. Apples and hubcaps.

Back in the day there were some attempts at designing multihulls that had the capacity for self righting. I recall one trimaran design that was launched upside down and then righted before carrying on. In the end though, I believe most designers concluded that the risks of capsize were so low and so preventable that they focused their efforts elsewhere. If you feel a cat is right for you then by all means get a cat, sail conservatively and you should be fine, even in high latitudes. But don't hit any ice.
What about prevention.. ?
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Old 15-05-2015, 17:02   #34
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Sorry, wrong again! When we purchased our first cruising catamaran 23 years ago we insured with Lloyds Of London. They told me their rates were lower for the catamaran as they considered it a better risk.
Now come on show me some links. All I hear is the sound of your lips flapping a million miles an hour with nothing to back it up. And no links from monohull weekly:
Fella.. Lets just agree to disagree and move on.. I am not really interested in this. I am interested in contemporary tech to recover or prevent capsize which I have started to see being used in several cats because cats of course never flip - do they?.. See, I have agreed with you.
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Old 15-05-2015, 17:12   #35
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

Chris white said this... Not me. (and I think he designs and makes cats)

Most sailors agree that the mainsail, particularly the large roached, full battened mainsail combined with the aft-led-shroud, no-backstay-configuration that is used in most catamarans today, is by far the most troublesome sail to hoist, reef/unreef, furl and cover. In addition, mainsails create significant safety liabilities because they cannot be easily or quickly reefed or furled when sailing downwind. In violent squalls this feature has caused more than a few capsizes. The conventional catamaran mainsail can also be somewhat risky to gybe in a blow.
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Old 15-05-2015, 17:22   #36
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Originally Posted by paulanthony View Post
Fella.. Lets just agree to disagree and move on.. I am not really interested in this. I am interested in contemporary tech to recover or prevent capsize which I have started to see being used in several cats because cats of course never flip - do they?.. See, I have agreed with you.

Sorry buddy, but it was you that brought this up in your original post, so maybe you shouldn't complain about the disagreement? BTW, just talked to a physicist and he said the conversation was pointless. There are completely different forces acting on the catamaran and monohull and it's like comparing apples to oranges. Also hard to compare as one may be more performance oriented and prone to capsize or sinking than the other.
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Old 15-05-2015, 17:45   #37
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Sorry buddy, but it was you that brought this up in your original post, so maybe you shouldn't complain about the disagreement? BTW, just talked to a physicist and he said the conversation was pointless. There are completely different forces acting on the catamaran and monohull and it's like comparing apples to oranges. Also hard to compare as one may be more performance oriented and prone to capsize or sinking than the other.
Ok.. Point taken. (shake hands) We are arguing about the periphery. I am interested in what is out there that allows the purchase of something fast that has safety built in or given back via the use of technology to mitigate the risk of a flip.

If you are running fast on the edge or in force 9/10 what is there to support the moderately performing cat?

Not much yet as I can see.
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Old 15-05-2015, 18:08   #38
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

Some food for thought
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Old 15-05-2015, 18:16   #39
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

As far as new technology. Prevention is better than cure, so standard seamanship rules apply to cats the same as monos. Reef for the conditions, have heavy weather equipment in board and be prepared to use it, such as drogues. Some high tech cats are making use of computerised winches that unload the sheets if they reach a certain force, or if the angle of heel increases beyond spec. A simpler approach would be to have smaller sheet attachments that act like a fuse. Not sure I'd like the wind deciding when to ease or release the sheets though, that's usually up to the prudent skipper.
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Old 15-05-2015, 18:19   #40
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Ok.. Point taken. (shake hands) We are arguing about the periphery. I am interested in what is out there that allows the purchase of something fast that has safety built in or given back via the use of technology to mitigate the risk of a flip.

If you are running fast on the edge or in force 9/10 what is there to support the moderately performing cat?

Not much yet as I can see.
Same as monohulls.....F9/10 should be bare poles....
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Old 15-05-2015, 18:23   #41
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

I just wanted to get in a post on this historic thread in the making.....


Oh, and I wonder if anyone has an Iroquois flipping story with the flotation saucer at the top of the mast those boats used to have. I wonder how that contraption worked out.
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Old 15-05-2015, 18:32   #42
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Yeh.. That lift bag seems not such a bad idea. The A frame could live permanently under the boat and be assembled quite easily.

The problem is how do you stop a cat landing on top of your head but the principle is def there.

I like it. Ok I am sold..
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Old 15-05-2015, 18:38   #43
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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What about prevention.. ?
The beauty of a cat is that you can sail under canvassed with little loss in speed. For the cruising boat this means that you can maintain a comfortable speed with little risk of wind induced capsize. We have a rule on-board that whenever sailing to the lee of headlands and valleys, or in the presence of squalls, the main is either deeply reefed or stowed. It is really hard to blow over a reefed cruising cat. Wave induced capsize can be mitigated with the techniques of heaving-to and fore-reaching or with drogues and sea anchors.

I really think you are spinning your wheels by chasing self-rescue and capsize prevention methods. You will be better off if you just get yourself a good cruising cat, sail it prudently and worry about whales.
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Old 15-05-2015, 19:54   #44
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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If they indeed quote a higher price for a cat than a mono, this probably reflects more on hull material and thickness than on number of hulls. For a trip to the Arctic or the NW passage where one is likely to encounter ice, I expect an insurance company might favor a steel hulled mono over a composite hull cat. Apples and hubcaps.

Back in the day there were some attempts at designing multihulls that had the capacity for self righting. I recall one trimaran design that was launched upside down and then righted before carrying on. In the end though, I believe most designers concluded that the risks of capsize were so low and so preventable that they focused their efforts elsewhere. If you feel a cat is right for you then by all means get a cat, sail conservatively and you should be fine, even in high latitudes. But don't hit any ice.
If I recall Dereck Kelsall was one of the designers involved but a you indicated for cruising cats with the risk so low why bother just sail conservatively.

http://www.kelsall.com/TechnicalArti...sAndSafety.pdf

http://www.kelsall.com/TechnicalArti...erformance.pdf
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Old 15-05-2015, 20:17   #45
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Half a century ago? Try a century and a half ago!

Check out Amaryllis in 1875.

Catamaran? Check
Prodder? Check
Central Pod? Check
Fastest thing on the water? Check.

This boat incorporated most of the aspects of today's modern ultra high performance cat 140 years ago!
Now just dump that silly looking newfangled rig and put a crabclaw on her and she will be perfect.
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