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Old 21-05-2015, 12:44   #376
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Originally Posted by DotDun View Post
Hmm...you see nothing wrong with that picture?

So you have concluded that a monohull would have made it Annapolis???
A monohull would have survived those conditions. The previous owner of my boat has been in the North Atlantic on what is now my boat in similar conditions. It was not fun, they spent 3 days hove to with everything battened down, but nothing was broken or damaged.

No - they would have not got to Annapolis until after those conditions had died down again. But they would have then been in a position to do so.
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Old 21-05-2015, 13:17   #377
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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A monohull would have survived those conditions. The previous owner of my boat has been in the North Atlantic on what is now my boat in similar conditions. It was not fun, they spent 3 days hove to with everything battened down, but nothing was broken or damaged.

No - they would have not got to Annapolis until after those conditions had died down again. But they would have then been in a position to do so.
You didn't read the same story I did. A large wave (>40') broke on the Lagoon 380 and flipped it. The violence described would have certainly broached/knocked down any monohull of similar size. Would the monohull have come back up? Maybe! Broken rigging? Maybe! Bust companion way hatch, filled with water and sunk? Maybe, in which case we would have never heard about it again.

You cannot say with certainty that a monohull would have survived. The Lagoon may have survived with a para-anchor deployed. No one can say for sure, except, that the Lagoon 380 saved the lives of 2 people.

The lesson: don't take weather forecasts at face value. Expect worse than forecast and larger area than forecast. The worst experience we've ever had on our boat was 100nm outside the predicted bad weather area. It'll make you take heed the next time.
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Old 21-05-2015, 13:21   #378
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Originally Posted by med View Post
A monohull would have survived those conditions. The previous owner of my boat has been in the North Atlantic on what is now my boat in similar conditions. It was not fun, they spent 3 days hove to with everything battened down, but nothing was broken or damaged.

No - they would have not got to Annapolis until after those conditions had died down again. But they would have then been in a position to do so.
I'm sorry! Previous owner? Go out there yourself then comment.Those big "loops" on the "rope" come off those "T shaped" things on the dock. I don't mean to sound demeaning but second hand stories don't fly and along with making a comparison you are not qualified to make. I've owned two that came across from England to the US, on their on bottoms. I wasn't there. Everyone has a sea story I expect maybe a seller most.

Go wonder around your marina, you might find a cat owner willing to take you sailing and be a friend.
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Old 21-05-2015, 13:33   #379
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Run the numbers on the forces of a wave hitting the underbelly broadside and then come back.
Don't get that.. Forces are acting both sides when in equilibrium with nose pointed to the weather.

say again please.. You mean on the upturn?
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Old 21-05-2015, 13:36   #380
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Thanks Mark,

Keeping the shinny side up makes more sense.
I see the cadence of Cadence is cadencing on song..
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Old 21-05-2015, 13:48   #381
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Don't get that.. Forces are acting both sides when in equilibrium with nose pointed to the weather.

say again please.. You mean on the upturn?
When the boat goes over, the nose isn't going to be pointed to weather. It will be full broadside to the next wave.

No system proposed so far in this fanciful thread is going to result in anything else in those ultimate conditions that would take a cruising cat over.

Broadside to a 30-40' wave, you will be lucky if you don't have a pair of monohulls, let alone keeping the mast attached after a couple waves.

Again, in your fanciful photo, the pond is near dead calm and they didn't even bother putting a sail on during the test (most likely because it would have made the system unworkable even on the beach cat).
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Old 21-05-2015, 13:52   #382
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

[QUOTE=paulanthony;1830319]I see the cadence of Cadence is cadencing on song.

Sorry, I commended Mark.

You are a totally uninformed AH.
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Old 21-05-2015, 14:07   #383
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Shitty weather is a definable mathematical problem.
ha! Stop talking and go sailing!


I really have no clue what your agenda is. Your idea is stubborn and will lead nowhere. So please go ahead and use your life savings to fund the research and marketing of your nice gizmo.
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Old 21-05-2015, 14:11   #384
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Experienced guys in a boat they were familiar with - and did not seem to have done anything wrong except may be head towards where they wanted to go to.

Could not happen according to previous posts.

But it does happen. And in this case for this particular delivery company two well founded cruising catamarans flipped within a few months of each other with loss of life in both cases.
No, No, No - it absolutely would not have happened according to previous posts.

According to the previous posts, safety and capsize prevention includes good decision making. Being in the N Atlantic in February is a very poor decision. This was a delivery crew - not cruisers.

I survived that storm without even getting cold or wet - because I wasn't there!!!! Only a fool goes out in the N Atlantic in February.

Dave
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Old 21-05-2015, 14:39   #385
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Please to go forth and study! But work with real data, written by engineers, and from first hand accounts of what happened. Nothing derived from imaginations or extrapolated from risk assessments of one insurance underwriter.

Please report back with your findings so we can balance the discussion!
Sorry, no such laborious plans, currently focusing on writing to a discussion forum, you need to satisfy with that.
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Old 21-05-2015, 15:10   #386
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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When the boat goes over, the nose isn't going to be pointed to weather. It will be full broadside to the next wave.

No system proposed so far in this fanciful thread is going to result in anything else in those ultimate conditions that would take a cruising cat over.

Broadside to a 30-40' wave, you will be lucky if you don't have a pair of monohulls, let alone keeping the mast attached after a couple waves.

Again, in your fanciful photo, the pond is near dead calm and they didn't even bother putting a sail on during the test (most likely because it would have made the system unworkable even on the beach cat).
Why will it be broad side? The pivot point is aft of the axis. It will twist. Oh.. just realised my error. - rear end on and? where does the broad side come in? You have a mass of water hanging and a boat sitting on it side floating looking like the biggest weathercock you have ever seen.

It is hardly fanciful and it is not MY photo and is a good example of where loads that were once difficult to manage because of the limitations of material can once again be challenged by people who are willing to challenge them with new tech. Yes yes. We know you don't like unstayed masts and modern solutions. I have seen that on the harry proa thread.

I notice also we are suddenly getting a lot of 30 - 40 foot tsunami waves when other day it seemed a rarity. Oh sorry about the sail they did not put up for the test by the way. Maybe that is in another fanciful picture.

What was it?... was it the factual documentation of a real archived picture showing the system that gets your goat. That's the problem with facts valhalla isn't it.. You cant argue with them but then you want a picture with a sail on it. It never ends it seems.. more please sir.
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Old 21-05-2015, 15:33   #387
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Sorry, no such laborious plans, currently focusing on writing to a discussion forum, you need to satisfy with that.
Adios, good luck.
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Old 21-05-2015, 15:36   #388
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Go read this story, citing first hand account of what happened.

Renegade Cruisers • View topic - Lagoon 38 capsize,

Is this use case supported in this conversation?
Certainly this case is a relevant case. I note that even skilled people tend to make mistakes.
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Old 21-05-2015, 16:10   #389
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Cruising cats don't just flip because of a gust. Unless you do something idiotic, it just isn't going to happen.
People do make mistakes. I believe there are such cases.

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Once over the weight and lever arm of the mast make it unlikely to just pop back up. No in storm conditions, the crew is not going to be able to right a cruising catamran.
You are maybe assuming some current design, not giving space to new designs.

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You could design for this but thenn you have a far less functional boat for normal usage. Since it's not a likely scenario, it's not worth the tradeoff. Once over on it's side, waves can easily wash in any exposed openings.
As I already said, I believe this is feasible. Just plan better where your open hatches/doors are.

Quote:
The boat is out off control and in danger, you are going to sit and wait to try starting the engine? Full tanks weigh a lot and in a violent roll to 90 degrees or more, the odds of something breaking loose is high. Now you are going to design a custom engine to tolerate operations to 90 deg? Lots of issues with your assumptions.
I want my boat to be solid and not have loose tanks etc. The engine that can run when tilted is just one possible research topic, not a requirement.

Quote:
But in most (statistically unlikey to ever be an issue), the boat won't go over, so why design for it?
Because people may die if it does.

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If you make the boat capable of surviving the huge forces involved, it will lose a lot of performance and other desireable characteristics of catamrans.
Monohulls can do this. If you want a very light and fast catamaran, you should make it very light. If you want a safer catamaran, you probably gain some weight.
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Old 21-05-2015, 16:17   #390
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Certainly this case is a relevant case. I note that even skilled people tend to make mistakes.
"Certainly" this case is not relevant. February in the N Atlantic is no place competent cruisers go. If you want to proscribe safety features for incompetent cruisers or desperate delivery crews, that's a wholly different topic with no rational solution.

Dave
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