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Old 20-05-2015, 17:59   #331
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

I just can't understand the head set on self righting a cat. Yes it might be feasible on a milk pond situation Hobis do it all the time. If you pitch pole or turtle from being in the beam sea, it isn't nice out there. I have no idea how to do it on a milk pond much less with high seas which would be the cause unless the Captain was an idiot on a milk pond with a cruising cat.


I might suggest those advocating it to go out in some nasty water. See how well it looks when the seas are up. Go at night, take a fix on a star on the horizon and realize you can't see it because a wave is blocking your view. And then test your theory about righting, in your head. Then go change your draws.
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Old 20-05-2015, 18:00   #332
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Can't help but being crass. I didn't realize you had the helm. Is that that big round wheel or that stick back there.
You can't help much at all can you Cadence.. If you are going to specialise in sarcastic humour can you at least make it funny. It is the most important part of the words definition after all.
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Old 20-05-2015, 18:15   #333
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

[QUOTE=Cadence;1829702]I just can't understand the head set on self righting a cat. Yes it might be feasible on a milk pond situation Hobis do it all the time. If you pitch pole or turtle from being in the beam sea, it isn't nice out there. I have no idea how to do it on a milk pond much less with high seas which would be the cause unless the Captain was an idiot on a milk pond.


You would not Know how to do what Cadence?
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Old 20-05-2015, 18:37   #334
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

[QUOTE=paulanthony;1829724]
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Originally Posted by Cadence View Post
I just can't understand the head set on self righting a cat. Yes it might be feasible on a milk pond situation Hobis do it all the time. If you pitch pole or turtle from being in the beam sea, it isn't nice out there. I have no idea how to do it on a milk pond much less with high seas which would be the cause unless the Captain was an idiot on a milk pond.


You would not Know how to do what Cadence?
You know I don't want to be in a pissing contest with you. It serves no one.
The part that I guess was lost. Go out in heavy enough seas to pitch pole or turtle a cat, do it at night so you can take a fix on a star on the horizon when it disappears behind a wave tell me how the righting would work. Then go change your draws.
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Old 20-05-2015, 18:53   #335
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

It's amazing that all the naval architects over time that have developed the current design of cruising catamarans have such little knowledge about capsizing a cat. I'm sure the information in this thread might enlighten at least a few of them such they will fix this statistically insignificant issue.

Oh, and those with actual experience on catamarans, we should pay attention as this issue will happen to each of us very soon!!!

After all,

Quote:
if it can happen, it 'generally' will


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Old 20-05-2015, 19:00   #336
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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It's amazing that all the naval architects over time that have developed the current design of cruising catamarans have such little knowledge about capsizing a cat. I'm sure the information in this thread might enlighten at least a few of them such they will fix this statistically insignificant issue.

Oh, and those with actual experience on catamarans, we should pay attention as this issue will happen to each of us very soon!!!

After all,





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Old 20-05-2015, 20:04   #337
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Originally Posted by 2Hulls View Post
OK, well point 1 speaks to avoiding the capsize altogether so there's obviously no "post trauma" benefit for recovering from a capsize. But if a capsize does occur despite the skill of the crew or especially because of an unskilled crew, there's gonna be trauma on any vessel, despite being able to right the vessel. So let's consider each case:



Cat Permanently capsized: Assuming the vessel remains afloat, the crew stays with the vessel and is able to retrieve the EPIRB(s) (I carry two ), flares, etc. and help eventually arrives. It's certainly not fun waiting. Sufficient dry food and bottled water can be retrieved from the vessel stores. There is a very high rate of successful rescues based on anecdotal evidence.



Cat can be uprighted: Assuming the self righting feature works as intended, the crew still likely ends up in the water and the vessel and contents are totally wet and likely mostly ruined. Can a short handed crew work the righting system? Assuming the vessel rights, AND the crew somehow doesn't get separated from the vessel as it is righted and floats away (no rig acting as a sea anchor), the crew has to sort out potentially ruined sails because starting engines is not a given. Once upside down fuel tanks are now contaminated with sea water, as are fresh water tanks. Who knows what portions of the electric distribution system still work? Batteries may last a while if they stayed put and connected. Regardless, all electronics are wet with seawater and don't work except any waterproof handhelds. Bottom line, there's plenty of trauma to go around. As in the permanently upside down cat, food and bottled water are available, but fresh water tanks are contaminated and the water maker no longer works due to no power or ruined pumps. Maybe bilge pumps will work if they have power. "Remote" pumps with wet motors probably won't. I think most knowledgeable people would agree that expecting a once capsized cat to simply sail or motor away anytime soon, if at all, just isn't a reasonable expectation. Good thing this crew carried an EPIRB in case of other emergencies, like fire. They end up in the same predicament as the upside down crew - just later.







My point here was that if "safety" includes protection of a boat owner's investment, then insurance meets that need. This recognizes that a permanently capsized cat is almost certainly a total loss and insurance satisfies this risk. Due to the damage from seawater and other failures, a momentarily capsized cat may also be a total loss - especially if it can't then reach a port because it can't move or has insufficient stores to sustain the crew for the time needed to reach port. Maybe the insurance premiums for a self righting cat will be less given the remote chance that it can be fully restored, but the cost of this feature is probably far greater than the savings in premiums.



A reasonable conclusion is that the crew of the righted cat will still need to be rescued. So where is the enhancement in safety? They get to sit in a water logged cat waiting for rescue rather than on an upside down one? Sure, that's probably more comfy, but was the cost, maintenance, and other compromises made to have such a benefit worth it? Even worse, will having such a system be a false sense of security luring unqualified crews to sea (see point 1)?



Dave

This is exactly right, in my humble opinion, and pretty clearly explains why self righting cats aren't on anyone's agenda, including owners, designers and insurance companies. More pertinent and deserving of brain power would be how to avoid the situation, and manage the situation should it arise, which most cruising cat owners have put a fair amount of consideration into. Apart from being an interesting distraction between sips of beer, self righting a cruising cat doesn't really enter the thoughts of most ..
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Old 20-05-2015, 20:54   #338
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Originally Posted by 2Hulls View Post
OK, well point 1 speaks to avoiding the capsize altogether so there's obviously no "post trauma" benefit for recovering from a capsize. But if a capsize does occur despite the skill of the crew or especially because of an unskilled crew, there's gonna be trauma on any vessel, despite being able to right the vessel. So let's consider each case:

Cat Permanently capsized: Assuming the vessel remains afloat, the crew stays with the vessel and is able to retrieve the EPIRB(s) (I carry two ), flares, etc. and help eventually arrives. It's certainly not fun waiting. Sufficient dry food and bottled water can be retrieved from the vessel stores. There is a very high rate of successful rescues based on anecdotal evidence.

Cat can be uprighted: Assuming the self righting feature works as intended, the crew still likely ends up in the water and the vessel and contents are totally wet and likely mostly ruined. Can a short handed crew work the righting system? Assuming the vessel rights, AND the crew somehow doesn't get separated from the vessel as it is righted and floats away (no rig acting as a sea anchor), the crew has to sort out potentially ruined sails because starting engines is not a given. Once upside down fuel tanks are now contaminated with sea water, as are fresh water tanks. Who knows what portions of the electric distribution system still work? Batteries may last a while if they stayed put and connected. Regardless, all electronics are wet with seawater and don't work except any waterproof handhelds. Bottom line, there's plenty of trauma to go around. As in the permanently upside down cat, food and bottled water are available, but fresh water tanks are contaminated and the water maker no longer works due to no power or ruined pumps. Maybe bilge pumps will work if they have power. "Remote" pumps with wet motors probably won't. I think most knowledgeable people would agree that expecting a once capsized cat to simply sail or motor away anytime soon, if at all, just isn't a reasonable expectation. Good thing this crew carried an EPIRB in case of other emergencies, like fire. They end up in the same predicament as the upside down crew - just later.



My point here was that if "safety" includes protection of a boat owner's investment, then insurance meets that need. This recognizes that a permanently capsized cat is almost certainly a total loss and insurance satisfies this risk. Due to the damage from seawater and other failures, a momentarily capsized cat may also be a total loss - especially if it can't then reach a port because it can't move or has insufficient stores to sustain the crew for the time needed to reach port. Maybe the insurance premiums for a self righting cat will be less given the remote chance that it can be fully restored, but the cost of this feature is probably far greater than the savings in premiums.

A reasonable conclusion is that the crew of the righted cat will still need to be rescued. So where is the enhancement in safety? They get to sit in a water logged cat waiting for rescue rather than on an upside down one? Sure, that's probably more comfy, but was the cost, maintenance, and other compromises made to have such a benefit worth it? Even worse, will having such a system be a false sense of security luring unqualified crews to sea (see point 1)?

Dave
You have made a big contribution here Dave. I will respond in the am. Need to crash because it is 4am here. Again though, I would have responded earlier but missed your reply because of all the flak that keeps coming in. I only noticed after some one else referenced your reply just recently. Sorry fella.
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Old 21-05-2015, 00:20   #339
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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If you are able to critique in an objective way with out hidden agendas or veiled insult I will be glad to read your comments.
Just read my previous posts. This one for example


There is no need for such a device.
It won't work except in a controled environment.
If it works it won't save the boat from being a full loss nor will it save the poor people in it.


Take a course in risks management. You are Don Quichotte trying to right windmills that have flipped over
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Old 21-05-2015, 01:28   #340
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Several minutes is better than no minutes. The window of negative stability in modern mono's is around 90 degrees now. some even less at 60.

The fact they come back up saves life's and saves boats. It is not as terminal for the mono craft when inverted and they can be still fit for propose after where as the cat shifts its duty to that of being dedicated as a survival raft. I am not sure in this position they lend selves to the word "survival" much either and those that venture to sea with no life raft have a screw loose in my humble opinion.

.
From reading about real life experience in the Queen's birthday storm and others, when a mono rolls over it will very often lose it's rig. Which will make it more prone to subsequent rollovers.

After a few rolls, it's unlikely it will have functional steering, motor or crew.

Fit for purpose?
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Old 21-05-2015, 04:30   #341
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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A reasonable conclusion is that the crew of the righted cat will still need to be rescued. So where is the enhancement in safety? They get to sit in a water logged cat waiting for rescue rather than on an upside down one?
You gave some good arguments questioning the benefits of spending lots of effort in saving a boat that will be abandoned anyway.

What would you say about trying to limit the 180 degrees problem to a 90 degrees problem? This way the chances of righting the boat (by the sea or crew) would be higher, and you might have most of your equipment dry.
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Old 21-05-2015, 05:08   #342
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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You gave some good arguments questioning the benefits of spending lots of effort in saving a boat that will be abandoned anyway.

What would you say about trying to limit the 180 degrees problem to a 90 degrees problem? This way the chances of righting the boat (by the sea or crew) would be higher, and you might have most of your equipment dry.
In storm conditions that are needed to flip a cruising cat, the crew still isn't going to be able to right the boat without outside help.

With the boat lying at 90 degrees for any length of time:
- Bottom hull is still fully submerged and anything in it trashed. Probably part of the bridge deck.
- Water, fuel tanks likely leaked or break loose. Oil may drain from the up-side engine and batteries short out. Having reliable systems is unlikely.
- If it's in conditions likely to roll the boat, subsequent waves are likely to rip the mast out within a few minutes. This is the worst position for stress on the rigging. This could make the situation worse if people are trying to climb in thru the cockpit when it give way and lands on them.

Bottom line, the boat is still likely a total loss and is not likely a better survival space than a well thought out 180 degree rolled boat.
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Old 21-05-2015, 05:20   #343
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

Monte
What has happened to your new witty signature?
When I read I needed much less of my challenged IQ to sail my cat I felt much better.
Chris
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Old 21-05-2015, 06:06   #344
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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In storm conditions that are needed to flip a cruising cat, the crew still isn't going to be able to right the boat without outside help.
Also gusts can flip a boat.

I mentioned also the possibility that the sea would right the boat. Crew might assist. And there may also be techniques that the crew can handle alone (no special technique in my mind at this point).

Quote:

With the boat lying at 90 degrees for any length of time:
Just wondering if five seconds fit in this "any length of time" category.

Quote:

- Bottom hull is still fully submerged and anything in it trashed. Probably part of the bridge deck.
I'm not familiar with the design of all the catamarans. To my understanding it is typical that either hull is sufficient to carry the weight of the whole boat. If the hull is watertight enough, the hull might remain completely dry. I believe it is possible to make the hulls watertight enough to tolerate a 90 degrees turn to either side and back.

Quote:

- Water, fuel tanks likely leaked or break loose. Oil may drain from the up-side engine and batteries short out. Having reliable systems is unlikely.
If the boat design aims at tolerating a 90 degree angle, then water and fuel tanks should be built accordingly. I would not start the engine right away after the incident, but I'm sure the engine is not dead yet, especially if it was not running during the incident. If it can not tolerate 90 degrees while running, the boat manufacturer could design a switch that turns it off. There are techniques also for the batteries.

Quote:

- If it's in conditions likely to roll the boat, subsequent waves are likely to rip the mast out within a few minutes. This is the worst position for stress on the rigging. This could make the situation worse if people are trying to climb in thru the cockpit when it give way and lands on them.
In some conditions the waves may break the boat, but in some other conditions that will not happen. It may also be that there are no big waves. If the boat turns back quickly, the probability of being hit by large waves in an unfavourable position decreases. A boat that is designed to survive 90 degree angles would be built stronger than a boat that is not planned not survive 90 degree angles.

Quote:

Bottom line, the boat is still likely a total loss and is not likely a better survival space than a well thought out 180 degree rolled boat.
I don't consider those two situations to be equally bad.
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Old 21-05-2015, 06:20   #345
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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OK, well point 1 speaks to avoiding the capsize altogether so there's obviously no "post trauma" benefit for recovering from a capsize. But if a capsize does occur despite the skill of the crew or especially because of an unskilled crew, there's gonna be trauma on any vessel, despite being able to right the vessel. So let's consider each case:

Cat Permanently capsized: Assuming the vessel remains afloat, the crew stays with the vessel and is able to retrieve the EPIRB(s) (I carry two ), flares, etc. and help eventually arrives. It's certainly not fun waiting. Sufficient dry food and bottled water can be retrieved from the vessel stores. There is a very high rate of successful rescues based on anecdotal evidence.

Cat can be uprighted: Assuming the self righting feature works as intended, the crew still likely ends up in the water and the vessel and contents are totally wet and likely mostly ruined. Can a short handed crew work the righting system? Assuming the vessel rights, AND the crew somehow doesn't get separated from the vessel as it is righted and floats away (no rig acting as a sea anchor), the crew has to sort out potentially ruined sails because starting engines is not a given. Once upside down fuel tanks are now contaminated with sea water, as are fresh water tanks. Who knows what portions of the electric distribution system still work? Batteries may last a while if they stayed put and connected. Regardless, all electronics are wet with seawater and don't work except any waterproof handhelds. Bottom line, there's plenty of trauma to go around. As in the permanently upside down cat, food and bottled water are available, but fresh water tanks are contaminated and the water maker no longer works due to no power or ruined pumps. Maybe bilge pumps will work if they have power. "Remote" pumps with wet motors probably won't. I think most knowledgeable people would agree that expecting a once capsized cat to simply sail or motor away anytime soon, if at all, just isn't a reasonable expectation. Good thing this crew carried an EPIRB in case of other emergencies, like fire. They end up in the same predicament as the upside down crew - just later.



My point here was that if "safety" includes protection of a boat owner's investment, then insurance meets that need. This recognizes that a permanently capsized cat is almost certainly a total loss and insurance satisfies this risk. Due to the damage from seawater and other failures, a momentarily capsized cat may also be a total loss - especially if it can't then reach a port because it can't move or has insufficient stores to sustain the crew for the time needed to reach port. Maybe the insurance premiums for a self righting cat will be less given the remote chance that it can be fully restored, but the cost of this feature is probably far greater than the savings in premiums.

A reasonable conclusion is that the crew of the righted cat will still need to be rescued. So where is the enhancement in safety? They get to sit in a water logged cat waiting for rescue rather than on an upside down one? Sure, that's probably more comfy, but was the cost, maintenance, and other compromises made to have such a benefit worth it? Even worse, will having such a system be a false sense of security luring unqualified crews to sea (see point 1)?

Dave
Your concerns about "fit for purpose" after the capsize event I believe would be given thought and ultimately resolved once any system for prevention or recovery had been deemed to hold consistent reliability. - basically a green light to unleash the designer/engineers pen elsewhere. I would suggest it would happen as it did for mono integrity. It was not so long ago that when a mono rolled it was a pack your bag moment as well and up to that point critical ancillary equipment was not given consideration post capsize either but it is now.

Sure, a boat sailing off into the yonder after righting whilst you are treading water with a sore head is not a nice thought but the problem again was not so different for mono's that resulted in new solutions and protocol's being applied. I can only suggest that your question about insurance would also mirror that of the mono sector if ever catamaran capsize became a non binary event.

Your question "is the benefit worth it?" is really the crux of the matter. There are experiments taking place that are attempting to lock a cat at 90 rather than resolve a 180 inversion. My own view is that this is probably in reality for engineering and science reasons a sensible target. A boat that goes 180 will fall foul of many of the things you mentioned and at this juncture maybe its a bridge too far for the cruiser market. I don't really know.

If I said to you as a customer to my boat showroom, would you care to buy the option of the new 90 degree capsize guard that #1 resulted in little or no compromise to performance, #2 was fully automatic or at least semi, #3 had a < 5% ticket price of the whole cost of the boat and then explained that it would stop you going beyond 90 I think in all honesty you would buy it.

Yesterday I posted a little graphic of an anti capsize solution that I have been informed of is being experimented with to determine its feasibility as a common and reliable solution on bigger craft. Later I will post some words to explain it better( I had better get my tin hat ready for that intended post) but if you did take the time to read it the tech is not overly cumbersome and is able to take advantage of new materials and science that such systems could not before. As these scientists like to say the solution looks quite beautiful.

Sorry for late reply.
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