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Old 20-05-2015, 11:52   #301
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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This is half a tri.. I'm pro. tri., no agenda I just like them for stability and it would be hard to knock one down. Pitch pole not so much but still harder than a cat.. And yes they have their drawbacks but not on the gist of this thread.
it takes a little mental mobility perhaps, but I am not advocating this boat type, Im suggest the anti-capsize feature would be useful on a cat
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Old 20-05-2015, 11:57   #302
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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I think that with respects to your points 1 and 2 a safety enhancement that offers during or post trauma some kind of salvation to an impending or resulting catastrophe would be a continuum of the hierarchical contributors to safety at sea.
OK, well point 1 speaks to avoiding the capsize altogether so there's obviously no "post trauma" benefit for recovering from a capsize. But if a capsize does occur despite the skill of the crew or especially because of an unskilled crew, there's gonna be trauma on any vessel, despite being able to right the vessel. So let's consider each case:

Cat Permanently capsized: Assuming the vessel remains afloat, the crew stays with the vessel and is able to retrieve the EPIRB(s) (I carry two ), flares, etc. and help eventually arrives. It's certainly not fun waiting. Sufficient dry food and bottled water can be retrieved from the vessel stores. There is a very high rate of successful rescues based on anecdotal evidence.

Cat can be uprighted: Assuming the self righting feature works as intended, the crew still likely ends up in the water and the vessel and contents are totally wet and likely mostly ruined. Can a short handed crew work the righting system? Assuming the vessel rights, AND the crew somehow doesn't get separated from the vessel as it is righted and floats away (no rig acting as a sea anchor), the crew has to sort out potentially ruined sails because starting engines is not a given. Once upside down fuel tanks are now contaminated with sea water, as are fresh water tanks. Who knows what portions of the electric distribution system still work? Batteries may last a while if they stayed put and connected. Regardless, all electronics are wet with seawater and don't work except any waterproof handhelds. Bottom line, there's plenty of trauma to go around. As in the permanently upside down cat, food and bottled water are available, but fresh water tanks are contaminated and the water maker no longer works due to no power or ruined pumps. Maybe bilge pumps will work if they have power. "Remote" pumps with wet motors probably won't. I think most knowledgeable people would agree that expecting a once capsized cat to simply sail or motor away anytime soon, if at all, just isn't a reasonable expectation. Good thing this crew carried an EPIRB in case of other emergencies, like fire. They end up in the same predicament as the upside down crew - just later.

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With respect to (3) I am not sure I appreciate fully your line of thought. We have been of late seeing cats abandoned that have not capsized and probably quite rightly so but I thing they are picking up a pay day still from the insurers. If you incurred damage during a capsize and logged it I think the ticket would also be picked up by a reputable company.
My point here was that if "safety" includes protection of a boat owner's investment, then insurance meets that need. This recognizes that a permanently capsized cat is almost certainly a total loss and insurance satisfies this risk. Due to the damage from seawater and other failures, a momentarily capsized cat may also be a total loss - especially if it can't then reach a port because it can't move or has insufficient stores to sustain the crew for the time needed to reach port. Maybe the insurance premiums for a self righting cat will be less given the remote chance that it can be fully restored, but the cost of this feature is probably far greater than the savings in premiums.

A reasonable conclusion is that the crew of the righted cat will still need to be rescued. So where is the enhancement in safety? They get to sit in a water logged cat waiting for rescue rather than on an upside down one? Sure, that's probably more comfy, but was the cost, maintenance, and other compromises made to have such a benefit worth it? Even worse, will having such a system be a false sense of security luring unqualified crews to sea (see point 1)?

Dave
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Old 20-05-2015, 11:58   #303
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Originally Posted by paulanthony View Post
P.S I would concur though that if you were upside down and were required to wait for calm weather to get back up the EPRIB would have effectively made the self righting tech somewhat academic and redundant and maybe just a more happy platform. So the self righting has to engage quite fast and possibly be tested as survival recourse before calling in the cavalry.
The first sentence shows progress, but regarding the second sentence, keep in mind that there are no self righting procedures for cruising cats for reasons that I, and a dozen others, have outlined in previous posts.

Paul, you are chasing a chimera here. If you would feel uncomfortable sailing in a cat that cannot be self-righted, then you need to move on and consider a monohull. There is no shame in that. There are hundreds of monohull designs suitable for cruising.
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Old 20-05-2015, 12:17   #304
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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it takes a little mental mobility perhaps, but I am not advocating this boat type, Im suggest the anti-capsize feature would be useful on a cat
You're correct, would be useful. Practical or cost effective? Invent one and be rich. It might be simple out of the box thinking. That's how most innovation happens.
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Old 20-05-2015, 12:37   #305
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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You're correct, would be useful. Practical or cost effective? Invent one and be rich. It might be simple out of the box thinking. That's how most innovation happens.
Symmetrical ceilings and floors and a telescoping mast that slides through the bottom, which becomes the new topsides. We're working on it, but the upside down toilet is giving us some trouble still.
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Old 20-05-2015, 12:59   #306
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Symmetrical ceilings and floors and a telescoping mast that slides through the bottom, which becomes the new topsides. We're working on it, but the upside down toilet is giving us some trouble still.
Put a seat belt on it!
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Old 20-05-2015, 13:58   #307
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

The cruiser forum acme anti capsize water bag. (Heath Robinson I)

Description.

#1 Fuse. When the cat enters into capsize mode a cpu will be monitoring acceleration and inertia loads against a small gyro. This means the result of capsize can be read moments in advance of the capsize.

#2 Brake. If the fuse is tripped an articulated (mirrored) bowsprit(A) is deployed via an air spring. This will deposit a bucket(B) into the water (big bag) and serve as a break. Bag under the water in less than a second.

#3 Pre recovery stability. At the 90 degree position the bag when resisted provides enough leverage to give stability equilibrium.

#4 Recovery. The bag is able to be hoisted via a manual or auto winch (C). The hoisting arm(bowsprit mirror) is telescopic and may be extended to provide greater leverage.*

#5 Continuation. After the boat is righted the mirror bowsprit can be hoisted back into position and secured. Air spring reset.

#6 Cuppa tea and a biscuit. With extra sugar for shock.

Footnotes *
A). During recovery the boat could deploy opposite ballast to allow the boat to recover slowly.

B) Pitch Pole. I have noticed on most instances of pitch pole that eventually the boat falls on to its side but this method if bag is set aft of CG will still work.

Looks inexpensive to me - One day all cats will be made this way.

Answer on a post card please.
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Old 20-05-2015, 14:03   #308
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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The cruiser forum acme anti capsize water bag. (Heath Robinson I)

Description.

#1 Fuse. When the cat enters into capsize mode a cpu will be monitoring acceleration and inertia loads against a small gyro. This means the result of capsize can be read moment in advance of the capsize.

#2 Brake. If the fuse is tripped an articulated (mirrored) bowsprit(A) is deployed via an air spring. This will deposit a bucket(B) into the water (big bag) and serve as a break.

#3 Pre recovery stability. At the 90 degree position the bag when resisted provides enough leverage to give stability equilibrium.

#4 Recovery. The bag is able to be hoisted via a manual or auto winch. The hoisting arm is telescopic and may be extended to provide greater leverage.*

#5 Continuation. After the boat is righted the mirror bow sprit can be hoisted back into position and secured. Air spring reset.

Footnotes *
A). During recovery the boat could deploy opposite ballast to allow the boat to recover slowly.

B) Pitch Pole. I have noticed on most instances of pitch pole that eventually the boat falls on to its side but this method if bag is set aft of CG will still work.

Looks inexpensive to me - One day all cats will be made this way.

Answer on a post card please.
I know I said I was done with this thread but I just shot pop out my nose reading that.

Thanks for the laugh.
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Old 20-05-2015, 14:10   #309
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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I know I said I was done with this thread but I just shot pop out my nose reading that.

Thanks for the laugh.
So your not going to invest in my(not mine actually but a little tweaked) new technology then I take it Valhalla?

I thought you would be the first.
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Old 20-05-2015, 14:11   #310
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Symmetrical ceilings and floors and a telescoping mast that slides through the bottom, which becomes the new topsides. We're working on it, but the upside down toilet is giving us some trouble still.
Not that far out of the box.
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Old 20-05-2015, 14:12   #311
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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So your not going to invest in my new technology then I take it Valhalla?

I thought you would be the first.
Sorry Wille Coyote beat you to me and I'm all in on Acme Inc.
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Old 20-05-2015, 14:13   #312
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Sorry Wille Coyote beat you to me and I'm all in on Acme Inc.
My feelings can not be hurt. Is the reason you wont invest because I have no data? - I can get some of that stuff easily enough.
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Old 20-05-2015, 14:14   #313
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Sorry Wille Coyote beat you to me and I'm all in on Acme Inc.
Wiley Coyote knows how to do it. Good investment.
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Old 20-05-2015, 14:29   #314
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

@mods

please move this thread into the joke section where it belonged from the start
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Old 20-05-2015, 14:56   #315
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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@mods

please move this thread into the joke section where it belonged from the start
Maybe you could move yourself to the joke section or if you have something serious to say then why not say it.

Its quite serious actually but we let humour pervade because it lightens the loads.
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