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Old 20-05-2015, 04:46   #271
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Do you think any manufacturer will invest a 6digit figure to claim this non-existing market to solve a problem that can't be solved reliably?
In the case that the market would seem non-existing, a manufacturer would probably not invest too large amounts of money. If the manufacturer would believe that the problem can not be solved reliably, the answer would probably be the same. Different manufacturers could of course end up in different conclusions.

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A problem that is not even considered a problem by most?
I'm sure many sailors will eventually hear about the possibility of their boat being knocked down, and they will quite typically be interested in studying the problem a bit deeper too.

To clarify my position a bit more, I note that since we are talking about potential loss of lives and loss of expensive boats, this matter is well worth some thinking. Wether there will be commercial products can be decided later (by others).
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Old 20-05-2015, 05:00   #272
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Originally Posted by ZULU40 View Post
There are monohull designs that do not need active devices to right themselves, they use the buoyancy of the boat combined with the curve of the coachhouse and the pendulum effect of the ballast.

The curve or tumblehome of the coachouse floating inverted on its marks sets up a relationship where it is impossible for it to come to rest which ensures the boat must fall back over and right itself

Im a little surprised this is apparently not universal as the principle has been well understood for decades.
Yes. It seems that there are still some accidents on the sea where the non-self-righting nature of the hull plays a role. I can understand that many race boats do not follow these design principles too strictly. But in cruising boats it could be a good practice to bring the righting capabilities (and other safety related features too) of each boat more clearly into the attention of the sailors.
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Old 20-05-2015, 05:15   #273
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Do you think the world sits still? No I can't share and would you recognise the name of a bureaucrat if I did.. C'mon be serious. Next time he is around I will see if I can let him use my account to post some blurb that no doubt you will reject like everything else you reject as I noticed you did against that Rons comments from harryproa.(Think it was you - if not apogees in advance) But we can try..
How surprising, you can't share the source of your secret knowledge.

Sure I reject unsupported assertions that are just silly. Keep putting out unsupported assertions and people will keep rejecting them. It's not a question of how many times you make unsupported assertions with no new data. You need to add new and valid information if you expect people to agree with you.
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Old 20-05-2015, 05:15   #274
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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In the case that the market would seem non-existing, a manufacturer would probably not invest too large amounts of money. If the manufacturer would believe that the problem can not be solved reliably, the answer would probably be the same. Different manufacturers could of course end up in different conclusions.



I'm sure many sailors will eventually hear about the possibility of their boat being knocked down, and they will quite typically be interested in studying the problem a bit deeper too.

To clarify my position a bit more, I note that since we are talking about potential loss of lives and loss of expensive boats, this matter is well worth some thinking. Wether there will be commercial products can be decided later (by others).
Many people who do not buy cats chose not to because of the capsize issue, be the problem great or small.

However, the current supply and demand dynamic favours the cat manufacturer and with respect to the bigger companies who have a lot of back orders there simply is no motivator to introduce what would be a fantastic USP to take more market share of the mono market while they are still able to pick low hanging fruit from the already converted. It makes no economic sense to do so.

The smaller companies don't really have R&D budgets to develop safety tech to capture people who lean towards the mono market so they compete in the same space as the big cat makers and provide niche verticals.

If the current supply/demand dynamic did suddenly flip then these big companies would start to develop ideas that could be used to entice the mono fan club who have a different set of priorities but at the moment it is case of why bother as their target market has already accepted the capsize compromise in favour of liveability and comfort.

This then only leaves certification and classification bodies to force the manufacturer to adopt safety tech that is not driven into existence through normal market forces.
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Old 20-05-2015, 05:17   #275
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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What would these be?
.................................................. .....
.

quirement.
Check out the harry proa thread that is ongoing recently and the limitations and issues are discussed.
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Old 20-05-2015, 05:22   #276
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Already one associated loss of life, or few losses of expensive boats, makes this a problem looking for a solution to me. No guarantees given on finding a cheap enough and a working enough solution, but certainly worth some thinking.
The thought exercise is certainly valid but it's been thought out and found to be impractical.

But more importantly, modern cruising cats just don't flip easily unless pushed to the limits or you do something stupid. I suggest not pushing them to the limits and doing stupid things as the primary solution.

Yes, you can get into conditions so bad that they will take out any boat but in those conditions, you aren't going to self right a catamaran (and the equivalent mono is likely going tot he bottom)
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Old 20-05-2015, 05:26   #277
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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I'm sure many sailors will eventually hear about the possibility of their boat being knocked down, and they will quite typically be interested in studying the problem a bit deeper too.
The problem is well known and a risk accepted by most cat cruisers. The probability is so low for all but the most ambitious high latitude sailors that it can be safely ignored.

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Originally Posted by Juho View Post
To clarify my position a bit more, I note that since we are talking about potential loss of lives and loss of expensive boats, this matter is well worth some thinking. Wether there will be commercial products can be decided later (by others).
The boat is a loss anyway. A boat that has been trashed around full of saltwater is worth next to nothing.

The thinking about this has been done some decades ago. with minimal results.
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Old 20-05-2015, 05:27   #278
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Check out the harry proa thread that is ongoing recently and the limitations and issues are discussed.
Good morning Valhall360

I think he was part of that thread and covered off every base and argument presented as I saw. So I would ask also again. What are the limitations of the harryproa as a cruiser or did you not read his replies?

You are always asking for facts and figures so c'mon.. Let's have some of yours.

Not available in purple or green?
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Old 20-05-2015, 05:34   #279
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Many people who do not buy cats chose not to because of the capsize issue, be the problem great or small.
No. Thats just you, not 'many people'. Simply because you have never sailed a cruising cat offshore.

If this was a significant number the industry would pick it up And provide a solution. Even if it was just marketing blabla. But they don't care so people like you are such a minority that nobody cares to save you from capsize.
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Old 20-05-2015, 05:41   #280
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Good morning Valhall360

I think he was part of that thread and covered off every base and argument presented as I saw. So I would ask also again. What are the limitations of the harryproa as a cruiser or did you not read his replies?

You are always asking for facts and figures so c'mon.. Let's have some of yours.

Not available in purple or green?
I thought you wanted this thread to only be about how to self right a catamaran?...hmm...

My responses are in the other thread with factual data. Feel free to read them. No hidden information or secret sources.
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Old 20-05-2015, 05:51   #281
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
I thought you wanted this thread to only be about how to self right a catamaran?...hmm...

My responses are in the other thread with factual data. Feel free to read them. No hidden information or secret sources.
Ooooooh. You could wriggle your way out of rabbit warren backwards. Great swerve - impressed.
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Old 20-05-2015, 06:05   #282
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Originally Posted by 2Hulls View Post
OK, I haven't read this complete thread, so maybe I missed the obvious conclusion: no, there are no self-recoverable-from-capsize cruising cats. There is no reasonable demand for such a thing. If somebody requires this feature in a cruising vessel above all other considerations, he/she should get a cruising mono and hope for the best - that the mono self rights before sinking, and then still doesn't sink....
Dave
Apologies to the OP for thread drift, but ETAP makes a line of unsinkable monohulls.
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Old 20-05-2015, 06:11   #283
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Apologies to the OP for thread drift, but ETAP makes a line of unsinkable monohulls.
I thought they did not make them any more.. Yeh I do like them. Thanks for the link what ever your motive may be.. I will have a read later.
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Old 20-05-2015, 06:30   #284
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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How surprising, you can't share the source of your secret knowledge.

Sure I reject unsupported assertions that are just silly. Keep putting out unsupported assertions and people will keep rejecting them. It's not a question of how many times you make unsupported assertions with no new data. You need to add new and valid information if you expect people to agree with you.
They are not unsupported but I suggest you resolve the Harryproa issue if you wish to be so demanding of others. If you do not wish to rise to the challenge here as your ducking and diving suggests then maybe you could honour Ron Denney's simple question with facts and figures to back up your assertion that harryproa's are not suitable for cruising on the harryproa thread. I notice though that you did remark on the harryproa references made earlier but now all a sudden when you asked to back your loose remark up you cry - inappropriate thread. Seems a bit too all of a sudden convenient to me with a helping of double standards.
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Old 20-05-2015, 06:59   #285
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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The thought exercise is certainly valid but it's been thought out and found to be impractical.
There is no proof that one could not find something practical. I would not stop research.

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But more importantly, modern cruising cats just don't flip easily unless pushed to the limits or you do something stupid. I suggest not pushing them to the limits and doing stupid things as the primary solution.
Yes, but unfortunately human beings do also stupid things.

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Yes, you can get into conditions so bad that they will take out any boat but in those conditions, you aren't going to self right a catamaran (and the equivalent mono is likely going tot he bottom)
Sometimes you can not do anything that would help, but that does not rule out the possibility that sometimes you could do something. I would not stop improving safety.

I think a good attitude is to continuously improve things in whatever fronts one can find progress, and not to select some areas that need not be improved.
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