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Old 19-05-2015, 16:29   #241
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Spectacular capsize

Everything seems to be well under control until....

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Old 19-05-2015, 16:36   #242
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Originally Posted by paulanthony View Post
MMm.. Remind me to go sailing with you then. Tell us more Med. Interested to know your experiences when you have time.
He is probably sailing a Hobie or something similar. The experience from a hobie translates directly to a cruising catamaran.

Pitchpoling was an issue with some of the early narrower cats, I think you will find this is not an issue with modern designs as designers have taken the problem to heart in their designs.
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Old 19-05-2015, 16:51   #243
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Originally Posted by mstrebe View Post
I posted the numbers on this stuff from a USCG post way back in this thread. I guess I'm surprised nobody read it.

88% of sailboat fatalities are due to operator error.
36% of capsizes of sailboats (both types combined) result in fatalities.

And most importantly of all: The odds of capsize in a sailboat are 22 in a million, including operator error. Excluding operator error, they are 3 in a million.

It's not a statistically important enough problem to solve, which is why it is unsolved. It's not even important enough to argue about.
I think all but ONE poster saw and agreed with your numbers. Likewise designers and buyers understand this.
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Old 19-05-2015, 16:52   #244
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Originally Posted by Juho View Post
Did you rule out the Iroquois style float at the top of the mast? If it works otherwise, most of your equipment might still be dry, and the boat might recover within a minute (if you are lucky) with the help of waves and wind.
Google: Roll Moment of Inertia. The weight aloft will make the boat more likely to roll. Self righting catamaran designs are a solution looking for a problem.
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Old 19-05-2015, 17:32   #245
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

OK, I haven't read this complete thread, so maybe I missed the obvious conclusion: no, there are no self-recoverable-from-capsize cruising cats. There is no reasonable demand for such a thing. If somebody requires this feature in a cruising vessel above all other considerations, he/she should get a cruising mono and hope for the best - that the mono self rights before sinking, and then still doesn't sink.

To the OP - what is your sailing experience? I'd be happy to help you select a boat for your experience level and preferences.

Dave
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Old 19-05-2015, 19:02   #246
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Originally Posted by downunder View Post
He is probably sailing a Hobie or something similar. The experience from a hobie translates directly to a cruising catamaran.

Pitchpoling was an issue with some of the early narrower cats, I think you will find this is not an issue with modern designs as designers have taken the problem to heart in their designs.
I know he is sailing Hobie's but I asked him for his experience and he gave some insights that probably do translate to a bigger class.

He mentioned that the minimum weight in still waters to bring the cat up is a 3rd of the boats top weight which the crew must equal unless they need external assistance. He also mentioned the issue of righting which can cause the cat to mediately capsize again due to the inertia caused by acceleration of the top side mass.

He also mentioned technique which with respect to leverage which would also apply in similar fashion but of course be done mechanically.

Interestingly I also spoke to an insider today that tells me that ISO are looking to impose a need for cat certification to stay at 90 for a certain time up to mid size so clearly the problem is being addressed and is regarded as one. I have also been told there are some clever minds behind the scenes working on workable solutions to this problem.

However, I imagine the standard will require a time delay before total inversion based on a test in a mill pond and I think it is aimed at the charter sector to give people a chance to evacuate properly rather than to bring the boat back up never the less it is a step in the right direction.

Leave it to the Brits.. We will sort it out for yer.
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Old 19-05-2015, 19:23   #247
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Originally Posted by 2Hulls View Post
OK, I haven't read this complete thread, so maybe I missed the obvious conclusion: no, there are no self-recoverable-from-capsize cruising cats. There is no reasonable demand for such a thing. If somebody requires this feature in a cruising vessel above all other considerations, he/she should get a cruising mono and hope for the best - that the mono self rights before sinking, and then still doesn't sink.

To the OP - what is your sailing experience? I'd be happy to help you select a boat for your experience level and preferences.

Dave
That is very kind of you. There is a thread under monos called.. "Old school romantic or new school pragmatic" that considers two quite different boats I am looking at and why.

Incidentally I do like cats and this thread is not one to dis them or an arena for a mono v's cat battle. It is really a technology thread to try and extract from people information regarding catamaran capsize prevention and recovery.

If I was to choose a cat I think I would go for an FP as they seem good all rounders.

But practically I am inclined to a swing keel mono for reasons defined in tuther thread.

Old school romantic or New School pragmatic
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Old 19-05-2015, 19:30   #248
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Originally Posted by paulanthony View Post
That is very kind of you. There is a thread under monos called.. "Old school romantic or new school pragmatic" that considers two quite different boats I am looking at and why.

Incidentally I do like cats and this thread is not one to dis them or an arena for a mono v's cat battle. It is really a technology thread to try and extract from people information regarding catamaran capsize prevention and recovery.

If I was to choose a cat I think I would go for an FP as they seem good all rounders.

But practically I am inclined to a swing keel mono for reasons defined in tuther thread.
Sorry, but your first post started this as a cat vs mono battle. It's obvious to me that you have little to no experience sailing a cruising cat and probably the same experience cruising monohulls. I would suggest you take the time to do some research then maybe revisit this thread.
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Old 19-05-2015, 20:01   #249
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Originally Posted by paulanthony View Post
I Interestingly I also spoke to an insider today that tells me that ISO are looking to impose a need for cat certification to stay at 90 for a certain time up to mid size so clearly the problem is being addressed and is regarded as one. I have also been told there are some clever minds behind the scenes working on workable solutions to this problem.
Wow, now secret insider knowledge fixing a problem that is not in evidence and no one is concerned about.

Sure you can't share who the secret insider is?
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Old 19-05-2015, 20:03   #250
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Sorry, but your first post started this as a cat vs mono battle. It's obvious to me that you have little to no experience sailing a cruising cat and probably the same experience cruising monohulls. I would suggest you take the time to do some research then maybe revisit this thread.
My first post did not start as any battle.. but it seems you want it to be though.

I doubt you are sorry for anything and I have an even a better suggestion for you - What about you do what you wana do and I will do what I wana do. How does that sound? Yes, I know it's that pain in the backside democracy and freedom of expression raising it's inconvenient head again but what can we do. I am sure one day you will be in charge and then you can call all the shots and make the world a perfect place but that day is not today I am sorry to tell you so excuse me if I ignore your suggestion.

I am tempted to suggest you to leave "MY" thread that "I" created but then I think It would make me just little bit too much like you so I will stay with my first suggestion for the sake of common liberty. Stay and have fun as long as you please.

Enjoy...
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Old 19-05-2015, 20:10   #251
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Wow, now secret insider knowledge fixing a problem that is not in evidence and no one is concerned about.
The amount of fantasy in this thread is on the brink of overwhelming!!!

The mods should move it to the joke thread!
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Old 19-05-2015, 20:30   #252
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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The amount of fantasy in this thread is on the brink of overwhelming!!!

The mods should move it to the joke thread!
I guess fantasy to some is potential reality to others. It has always been that way. Why should the mods do anything? You are free to leave fantasy land any time you want. Why hang around? Seems a bit masochistic to me to stay in a place that can wind you up so much. I am also confused because when I go to a thread that holds no interest I simply exit. Strange how different people can be.
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Old 19-05-2015, 21:11   #253
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Originally Posted by valhalla360 View Post
Wow, now secret insider knowledge fixing a problem that is not in evidence and no one is concerned about.

Sure you can't share who the secret insider is?
Do you think the world sits still? No I can't share and would you recognise the name of a bureaucrat if I did.. C'mon be serious. Next time he is around I will see if I can let him use my account to post some blurb that no doubt you will reject like everything else you reject as I noticed you did against that Rons comments from harryproa.(Think it was you - if not apogees in advance) But we can try..
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Old 19-05-2015, 21:12   #254
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Originally Posted by Redreuben View Post
One thing most self recovery systems seem to require is the mast. Is this not a massive assumption that the mast will survive the capsize/pitchpole ?


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum
It would seem ego's and arguments are more important than what I thought was a very relevant question ?
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Old 19-05-2015, 21:36   #255
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

A cat is more stable upside down than right-side-up. Thus, it takes more force to right one than to capsize one.
A monohull is maximally stable at the bottom of the ocean.

Your cat should come with a reefing table that tells you the maximum sail to carry for every point of sail and wind speed combination. Reef appropriately and you will be safe.
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