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Old 19-05-2015, 04:23   #211
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Yes There were two new design Ist of build american built cats abandoned in rough conditions recently off USA east coast [B]that did not capsize.[/B] Although neither have been salvaged with only internet knowledge it is difficult to be sure of the real issues. In the case of the Alpha 42 it seems likely there was definitely a rudder issue with the first built. Designers/builders often need make modifications to new designs.

Certainly a 40ft cat is at the lower end of the scale for a cat chosen for high latitude sailing when 50-60 ft might be more appropriate. As with monohulls longer hulls tend to handle larger seas better.



As you would be aware there was also the foiling Gunboat that flipped and was righted. This is not a normal cruising catamaran.
I spoke(comment chat) to the builder of the alpha direct very shortly after. I asked what redesign was going to be done. I don't want to say too much here because inherently it is a very good boat but my own conclusion from what was said was that the boat got caught in rapid changing conditions and ended up beyond its comfort zone.

This is my principle concern with smaller cats which is what most people are buying that if you accidentally find yourself in such a weather window a mistake or simple bad luck can end in catastrophe quite easily. If it can happen it generally will happen so if I had a 40 foot cat I would stay where it CAN not happen which is really not fair for those that can only afford smaller boats as I would also like to be able to venture into the fringes a little and I would like designers to try and address this problem.

If that Alpha 42 was mine there is no way I would leave that boat and I would be on top paddling back in. It is too much to lose for me.
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Old 19-05-2015, 07:07   #212
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

The Alpha 42 was the first one built and probably had some teething problems. The boat was handling it fine, my guess is the crew and owners forgot to pack their big boy pants before heading out, this the decision made to evacuate.
The first catamaran to circumnavigate by the way of Cape Horn was an Oceanic 30. Made it with no problems and was definitely a dated design.
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Old 19-05-2015, 07:27   #213
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Originally Posted by paulanthony View Post
I spoke(comment chat) to the builder of the alpha direct very shortly after. I asked what redesign was going to be done. I don't want to say too much here because inherently it is a very good boat but my own conclusion from what was said was that the boat got caught in rapid changing conditions and ended up beyond its comfort zone.

This is my principle concern with smaller cats which is what most people are buying that if you accidentally find yourself in such a weather window a mistake or simple bad luck can end in catastrophe quite easily. If it can happen it generally will happen so if I had a 40 foot cat I would stay where it CAN not happen which is really not fair for those that can only afford smaller boats as I would also like to be able to venture into the fringes a little and I would like designers to try and address this problem.

If that Alpha 42 was mine there is no way I would leave that boat and I would be on top paddling back in. It is too much to lose for me.
So what I hear you saying is that you want a fail-safe catamaran, designed, tested, and proven for high latitude passage making, at a built-for-charter production price?

( .....and I want a pony!.....)
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Old 19-05-2015, 07:35   #214
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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If it can happen it generally will happen
Can you explain this logic??

Statistical insignificance does not equal "generally" ??

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Generally
adverb gen·er·al·ly \ˈjen-rə-lē, ˈje-nə-, ˈje-nər-lē\
: in a general way : in a way that is not detailed or specific
: in most cases
: by or to most people
If you are trying to quote Captain Ron....he stated: "If anything is going to happen , it's going to happen out there."
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Old 19-05-2015, 08:33   #215
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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So what I hear you saying is that you want a fail-safe catamaran, designed, tested, and proven for high latitude passage making, at a built-for-charter production price?

( .....and I want a pony!.....)

Not fail safe but fail recoverable. I may be mistaken but I think a blue catamaran = big at this time. Big has its own inherent safety margins which I cant buy in a smaller boat.
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Old 19-05-2015, 08:40   #216
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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The Alpha 42 was the first one built and probably had some teething problems. The boat was handling it fine, my guess is the crew and owners forgot to pack their big boy pants before heading out, this the decision made to evacuate.
The first catamaran to circumnavigate by the way of Cape Horn was an Oceanic 30. Made it with no problems and was definitely a dated design.
I think they were forced to abandon. The skipper can get into serious trouble if he/she delays evacuation. I think to be fair you are not allowed to be brave by law now. Prison can be the result.
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Old 19-05-2015, 09:27   #217
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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I think they were forced to abandon. The skipper can get into serious trouble if he/she delays evacuation. I think to be fair you are not allowed to be brave by law now. Prison can be the result.

They weren't forced, in fact they sat around sharing a fine bottle of wine then made the decision to evacuate. Just goes to show you, either catamarans are really comfortable in life threatening situations or they took the easy way out.
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Old 19-05-2015, 09:48   #218
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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They weren't forced, in fact they sat around sharing a fine bottle of wine then made the decision to evacuate. Just goes to show you, either catamarans are really comfortable in life threatening situations or they took the easy way out.
They had no rudders though and ingress of water in a hull. What other option did they have other than hop skip and jump? They tried to fix it but were unable to.

If you have no control you are kind of obliged to dial sos. If the skipper did not seek assistance and the boat went turtle because of no control he would have got into big trouble. His duty within reason is to the crew first and boat second.

I think he could have nominated to stay with the boat himself but all the rescue services would have been telling the skipper to abandon. The pressure to come off would have been immense and the skipper cant really put the emergency services at risk twice in one day for the same boat if he then himself decides it is even too dangerous for himself later on.

Also it was getting dark and to dial in an sos later would have added more complexity to the problem.

Maybe cracking a bottle of wine and having a realistic discussion was not a bad thing to do.

What other info do you have?
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Old 19-05-2015, 10:07   #219
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Can you explain this logic??

Statistical insignificance does not equal "generally" ??



If you are trying to quote Captain Ron....he stated: "If anything is going to happen , it's going to happen out there."
I think you are being a little pedantic I am referring to Murphy's but I think you knew that anyway. Nature will present every permutation eventually.

Murphy's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Incidentally.. The phrase has been around a bit longer than Captain Ron.
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Old 19-05-2015, 10:12   #220
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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They had no rudders though and ingress of water in a hull. What other option did they have other than hop skip and jump? They tried to fix it but were unable to.

If you have no control you are kind of obliged to dial sos. If the skipper did not seek assistance and the boat went turtle because of no control he would have got into big trouble. His duty within reason is to the crew first and boat second.

I think he could have nominated to stay with the boat himself but all the rescue services would have been telling the skipper to abandon. The pressure to come off would have been immense and the skipper cant really put the emergency services at risk twice in one day for the same boat if he then himself decides it is even too dangerous for himself later on.

Also it was getting dark and to dial in an sos later would have added more complexity to the problem.

Maybe cracking a bottle of wine and having a realistic discussion was not a bad thing to do.

What other info do you have?

They had rudders but I believe one was jammed. Never heard about a large amount of water entering the hull.
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Old 19-05-2015, 10:57   #221
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Some of the systems for capsize prevention mentioned earlier may have some merit, such as winches that release under preprogrammed loads or tilt angle, but they are mostly being tested on racing yachts.
Everytime I have capsized or pitchpoled my catamaran it has been with all sheets completely released.
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Old 19-05-2015, 11:09   #222
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Everytime I have capsized or pitchpoled my catamaran it has been with all sheets completely released.
MMm.. Remind me to go sailing with you then. Tell us more Med. Interested to know your experiences when you have time.
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Old 19-05-2015, 11:12   #223
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Righting a Catamaran

I am reasonably expert in righting a catamaran. I am more expert at that than I am at sailing them!!!

In order to be able to right a Hobie Cat type of catamaran, most people reckon you need a crew weight of at least 1/3 of the all up weight of the cat.

For a cat which has not turned turtle (i.e. with a small float at the top of the mast, or a completely sealed mast), in anything over a F4 you first need to ensure that all sheets are released. Then you need to swim the bows around to point at about 45 degrees to the wind, with the wind on the trapoline tending to right the boat. You use a line attached to the base of the mast throw over the upper hull with a few convenient knots in it, and then the crew stand on the upper side of the bottom hull as far away from the tip of the mast as possible and lean out as far as possible using the rope with the knots to get as much leverage as possible. If you don't have enough leverage, you will need to point at a greater angle to the wind - at the risk of the boat flipping over immediately after coming upright.

If the crew weight is less than 1/3 of the all up weight, then in calm conditions you cannot right the catamaran without outside help. In windy conditions, you might be able to do so, however, you will be very prone to the cat flipping over again once it comes up.

Once the mast and sail is out of the water, then the boat will typically come upright fairly quickly. In lively conditions the trick is to quickly get your wait onto upwind side of the cross member between the hulls which supports the mast. Hanging on there will also tend to ensure the boat heads up into the wind, and will stop it flipping over again. This is typically where I board as well - although it is a bit of an effort to be able to climb out of the water onto the trampoline.

It is difficult to see how you could possibly get enough weight far enough out board to right a cruising cat. However one could imagine some kind of spar attached under neath the cat, attached to the middle of the boat directly under the mast. This would be have an attachment point 1/3 of the way along which would be attached to a line going over the upper hull and attached to the mast. This would point up at an angle of 60 degrees or some from the water and have a large bag at the end into which you could pump enough tonnes of water to flip you upright. A small float or hydrostatically inflatable bag at the top of the mast should prevent the cat turning completely turtle.
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Old 19-05-2015, 11:27   #224
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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This thread was doing well for about 100 posts, a few guys kicking back and forth some mostly un plausible ideas, but netherthe less harmless enough. Then the **** hit the fan
The focus was on how to self right a turtled cat, but even some of the more brilliant ideas are inherently flawed due to needing suitable conditions to haul the sheets, pump the pumps, launch the dinghy etc. if anyone bothered to read some of the actual reports of capsized cats they would probably realise that in no way do the conditions that cause a cat to tip suitable for ANY kind of reparation work. It's survival mode at best.
Read the report on the Atlantic cat where the husband was stuck inside the hull and the wife outside with no way to safely join each other, or the catana where the 4 crew wedged there legs in the escape hatch as it was the only way to stop from being swept away with the sea (3 eventually were)
Some of the systems for capsize prevention mentioned earlier may have some merit, such as winches that release under preprogrammed loads or tilt angle, but they are mostly being tested on racing yachts. Maybe one day some will be standard on cruising yachts, but for my mind I'd rather be in control of my yacht and not rely on systems when the conditions don't warrant it. Ok I'll let the AP drive when it's rough but I'll still be there ready to take over in seconds.
My advice is
1/ don't tip over
2/ if you do I hope you made plans on how to access the EPIRB , grab bag and liferaft and stay attached to the upturned hull or inside the hull
3/ don't forget to read the manual!
Attachment 102333
Damn monte! You mean someone responsible needs to be on deck. I saw one that said the weather can sneak up on you, I guess it can but an eye on the horizon seems to solve most of that. Sounds as though people want autosailing? I bet we can give the helm to Hal, from a space odyssey
to a sea odyssey. It worked well in space.
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Old 19-05-2015, 11:57   #225
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Originally Posted by paulanthony View Post
I think you are being a little pedantic I am referring to Murphy's but I think you knew that anyway. Nature will present every permutation eventually.

Murphy's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Incidentally.. The phrase has been around a bit longer than Captain Ron.
Quote:
If it can happen it generally will happen
Murphy does not quantify! You did. Big difference! Changes the whole meaning! If that is pedantic to you, wow!
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