Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

[paulanthony]

Originally Posted by Factor

Thanks for your permission, appreciate. Your need and desire to be argumentative is amazing. Your ability to say - this thread is going south only because cat owners are sensitive is breathtaking. Your demonstrated lack on knowledge is not only awe inspiring, its dangerous as some poor misguided souls may think you know what you talk about.

You pose a trojan horse question as a means to have a fight. Social research suggests you are either a 16 year old geek, or a someone who has never sailed out of sight on a dark night.

BUT to answer your original question, the answer is no. The reason the answer is no is that it is a stupid stupid stupid question. Capsize is a risk that is better prevented by active safety measures than recovered from. Capsize in a "cruising size" is very very very rare. So there you go - there is your answer, or do you really want to have an argument, in which case, fine, I am happy to oblige, but I would need to know if you have any sailing experience at all and on what - its hard to describe reality to people who have never experienced it. It needs a different communication strategy.

The terms of reference here is "self righting". It is a thread to disclose interesting technology to prevent inverted capsize and or recovery which incidentally some people have bothered to do.

One person disclosed that he is currently developing a system of ballasting and pumping, another posted reference to a self righting multi hull with self righting ability inherent from its shape. There were references to Harrypro that is semi self righting and other systems. Some people have read the title and clearly understand the terms of reference implied and commented accordingly. I would add that many of their posted examples do in fact also consider quite large cruising craft.

If you have some technology that you have discovered and you think it is of interest then please share it or alternatively where ever you see technology posted by others that you do not think will work then please feel free to tell us why as we would like to hear why in the context of that which is posted and then we can form our own opinion which will no doubt include your very own objections.

Please forgive me and others who are interested in this tech because we believe that although the number of capsizes are few they are not few enough especially in smaller vessels.

This is a technology thread and there is no Trojan horse here and you will appreciate this "fact" more if you cared to read the appropriate posts contained where you will see the interest that surrounds them for a short while before some people with overly developed sensitivities to any catamaran criticism wade in for a cat fight and skupper the thrust of an otherwise interesting thread. You seem quite angry - are you a Manchester city fan or a Real Madrid fan by any chance? There is always next year. Don't worry.

P.S Social research - To do background checking based on a members name handle is a pointless thing to do and why oh why would anybody want to. Very strange and worrying indeed.

[downunder]

Originally Posted by paulanthony

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P.S Social research - To do background checking based on a members name handle is a pointless thing to do and why oh why would anybody want to. Very strange and worrying indeed.

When a new contributer gives no info on their handle of their vessel and location I think it is not unusual for others to check to help understand their background before replying. Some such as yourself prefer to remain hidden.
Some see that as strange and worrying.

[monte]

This thread was doing well for about 100 posts, a few guys kicking back and forth some mostly un plausible ideas, but netherthe less harmless enough. Then the **** hit the fan
The focus was on how to self right a turtled cat, but even some of the more brilliant ideas are inherently flawed due to needing suitable conditions to haul the sheets, pump the pumps, launch the dinghy etc. if anyone bothered to read some of the actual reports of capsized cats they would probably realise that in no way do the conditions that cause a cat to tip suitable for ANY kind of reparation work. It's survival mode at best.
Read the report on the Atlantic cat where the husband was stuck inside the hull and the wife outside with no way to safely join each other, or the catana where the 4 crew wedged there legs in the escape hatch as it was the only way to stop from being swept away with the sea (3 eventually were)
Some of the systems for capsize prevention mentioned earlier may have some merit, such as winches that release under preprogrammed loads or tilt angle, but they are mostly being tested on racing yachts. Maybe one day some will be standard on cruising yachts, but for my mind I'd rather be in control of my yacht and not rely on systems when the conditions don't warrant it. Ok I'll let the AP drive when it's rough but I'll still be there ready to take over in seconds.
My advice is
1/ don't tip over
2/ if you do I hope you made plans on how to access the EPIRB , grab bag and liferaft and stay attached to the upturned hull or inside the hull
3/ don't forget to read the manual!

[paulanthony]

Originally Posted by downunder

When a new contributer gives no info on their handle of their vessel and location I think it is not unusual for others to check to help understand their background before replying. Some such as yourself prefer to remain hidden.
Some see that as strange and worrying.

Mmm. Interesting, so your real name is downunder then.. Cool name. How is Vegemite Sandwich these days? If you want to give credential, unless you give a real name it is kind of worthless and pointless. Sorry, but I don't get the rational. If it was of importance I am sure it would be required as mandatory data.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by paulanthony

a Manchester city fan or a Real Madrid fan by any chance? .

Never been to Manchester and i didn't know there was an UNREAL Madrid.

[downunder]

Originally Posted by paulanthony

Mmm. Interesting, so your real name is downunder then.. Cool name. How is Vegemite Sandwich these days? If you want to give credential, unless you give a real name it is kind of worthless and pointless. Sorry, but I don't get the rational. If it was of importance I am sure it would be required as mandatory data.

Yes I generally have vegemite and toast for breakfast.

Still don't know if you have a vessel or if you come with European, Pacific or USA experience. Hopefully I can survive a capsize with that.

I think Monte's advise is good for cat owners.

1/ don't tip over
2/ if you do I hope you made plans on how to access the EPIRB , grab bag and liferaft and stay attached to the upturned hull or inside the hull
3/ don't forget to read the manual!

cheers

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by paulanthony

So Catamarans are mistake sensitive then? Need to be highly alert then. Oh I see. Gotcha - It is starting to make sense now and there was I starting to believe they were such cosy easy going and forgiving places.

It's obvious that you are not confident to operate a catamaran in the conditions you envision, you are looking for a remedy for what you believe can and will happen. Hence, I encourage you not to endanger yourself.

I happen to disagree with your assertion that a catamaran is more likely to capsize than a monohull is likely to sink. If you examine all instances of both, you'll find operator error is a big contributor in the majority of the cases. Eliminate the operator error, and both are equally safe. YMMV

[mstrebe]

Originally Posted by DotDun

It's obvious that you are not confident to operate a catamaran in the conditions you envision, you are looking for a remedy for what you believe can and will happen. Hence, I encourage you not to endanger yourself.

I happen to disagree with your assertion that a catamaran is more likely to capsize than a monohull is likely to sink. If you examine all instances of both, you'll find operator error is a big contributor in the majority of the cases. Eliminate the operator error, and both are equally safe. YMMV

I posted the numbers on this stuff from a USCG post way back in this thread. I guess I'm surprised nobody read it.

88% of sailboat fatalities are due to operator error.
36% of capsizes of sailboats (both types combined) result in fatalities.

And most importantly of all: The odds of capsize in a sailboat are 22 in a million, including operator error. Excluding operator error, they are 3 in a million.

It's not a statistically important enough problem to solve, which is why it is unsolved. It's not even important enough to argue about.

[paulanthony]

Originally Posted by monte

This thread was doing well for about 100 posts, a few guys kicking back and forth some mostly un plausible ideas, but netherthe less harmless enough. Then the **** hit the fan
The focus was on how to self right a turtled cat, but even some of the more brilliant ideas are inherently flawed due to needing suitable conditions to haul the sheets, pump the pumps, launch the dinghy etc. if anyone bothered to read some of the actual reports of capsized cats they would probably realise that in no way do the conditions that cause a cat to tip suitable for ANY kind of reparation work. It's survival mode at best.
Read the report on the Atlantic cat where the husband was stuck inside the hull and the wife outside with no way to safely join each other, or the catana where the 4 crew wedged there legs in the escape hatch as it was the only way to stop from being swept away with the sea (3 eventually were)
Some of the systems for capsize prevention mentioned earlier may have some merit, such as winches that release under preprogrammed loads or tilt angle, but they are mostly being tested on racing yachts. Maybe one day some will be standard on cruising yachts, but for my mind I'd rather be in control of my yacht and not rely on systems when the conditions don't warrant it. Ok I'll let the AP drive when it's rough but I'll still be there ready to take over in seconds.
My advice is
1/ don't tip over
2/ if you do I hope you made plans on how to access the EPIRB , grab bag and liferaft and stay attached to the upturned hull or inside the hull
3/ don't forget to read the manual!
Attachment 102333

I have read all of those and they are very frightening. We are seeing fused sails and heel giro's starting to find there way on to cruiser class gradually which as a prevention measure has to be good. Although we may end up relying on them a bit too much.

[paulanthony]

Originally Posted by downunder

Yes I generally have vegemite and toast for breakfast.

Still don't know if you have a vessel or if you come with European, Pacific or USA experience. Hopefully I can survive a capsize with that.

I think Monte's advise is good for cat owners.

1/ don't tip over
2/ if you do I hope you made plans on how to access the EPIRB , grab bag and liferaft and stay attached to the upturned hull or inside the hull
3/ don't forget to read the manual!

cheers

I have no idea about you either but I do read your words and consider them in their own right for their own sake. I have a Union Jack against my name I think. Glad to see some smiley faces from you anyway in this dark dark place of cat people.

[downunder]

Originally Posted by paulanthony

I have no idea about you either but I do read your words and consider them in their own right for their own sake. I have a Union Jack against my name I think. Glad to see some smiley faces from you anyway in this dark dark place of cat people.

Very bright place here in cat land in Queensland. Plenty of sunshine here.

I would welcome a self righting cat in the market however like most the issue will not prevent me from purchasing a current cruising cat.

As others have said in the conditions likely to capsize a cruising cat righting it would be virtually impossible.

Cheers

[Redreuben]

One thing most self recovery systems seem to require is the mast. Is this not a massive assumption that the mast will survive the capsize/pitchpole ?


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[paulanthony]

Originally Posted by DotDun

It's obvious that you are not confident to operate a catamaran in the conditions you envision, you are looking for a remedy for what you believe can and will happen. Hence, I encourage you not to endanger yourself.

I happen to disagree with your assertion that a catamaran is more likely to capsize than a monohull is likely to sink. If you examine all instances of both, you'll find operator error is a big contributor in the majority of the cases. Eliminate the operator error, and both are equally safe. YMMV

Not sure where to start on this reply.

The conditions I posted earlier reference the 40 foot cat would thwart my interest in a trip because periodic 20 foot steep waves arriving at right angles while I am skiing down a 10 foot one(even with a drogue) would not appeal. I believe it would be beyond the design scope of the generic boat. We saw an America cat get kicked in similar conditions recently that broke both its rudders. It could not get through a tack.

Operator error. Yep - I am good at that which is why I look for forgiveness in a turn and would choose a little bit of under steer rather than over steer.

If I could have a cat that If I tripped over I could get it upright I would be a happy bunny. If I tripped a cat even on a flat calm day I think I would so pissed off I would jump in the deep end anyway. For me it would too much of a doh! moment.

[downunder]

Originally Posted by paulanthony

Not sure where to start on this reply.

The conditions I posted earlier reference the 40 foot cat would thwart my interest in a trip because periodic 20 foot steep waves arriving at right angles while I am skiing down a 10 foot one(even with a drogue) would not appeal. I believe it would be beyond the design scope of the generic boat. We saw an America cat get kicked in similar conditions recently that broke both its rudders. It could not get through a tack.

Operator error. Yep - I am good at that which is why I look for forgiveness in a turn and would choose a little bit of under steer rather than over steer.

If I could have a cat that If I tripped over I could get it upright I would be a happy bunny. If I tripped a cat even on a flat calm day I think I would so pissed off I would jump in the deep end anyway. For me it would too much of a doh! moment.

Yes There were two new design Ist of build american built cats abandoned in rough conditions recently off USA east coast [B]that did not capsize.[/B] Although neither have been salvaged with only internet knowledge it is difficult to be sure of the real issues. In the case of the Alpha 42 it seems likely there was definitely a rudder issue with the first built. Designers/builders often need make modifications to new designs.

Certainly a 40ft cat is at the lower end of the scale for a cat chosen for high latitude sailing when 50-60 ft might be more appropriate. As with monohulls longer hulls tend to handle larger seas better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQ-svmgOxqw

As you would be aware there was also the foiling Gunboat that flipped and was righted. This is not a normal cruising catamaran.

[Juho]

Originally Posted by Redreuben

One thing most self recovery systems seem to require is the mast. Is this not a massive assumption that the mast will survive the capsize/pitchpole ?


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

Monohulls that get rolled over by big waves seem seem to have some tendency to lose their mast (I don't have any statistics). Catamarans may behave somewhat differently. They may flip over their nose more often, and they may not roll as much. Light (race) catamarans seem not to lose their mast very often.

If the boat is knocked down by a gust of wind, there may be no big waves, and dismasting is therefore less likely.