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Old 17-05-2015, 09:44   #136
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Originally Posted by DerekKelsall View Post
We got so little interest at the time, we did not take further.
I am not surprised. In these days of EPIRBS with GPS, satellite phones, In-reach, SPOT etc., I suspect it would be unusual for crew to spend more than a day aboard an overturned multihull before rescue. Even on a well prepared boat with a dedicated inverted living area, life after capsize will be wet, uncomfortable and probably dangerous. Assuming the boat was capsized by extremely rough weather, it would be much to ask of a cruising couple to wait for days or longer in or on the overturned boat for calm weather to try to right it, rather than activate the EPIRB and be taken off as soon as possible.
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Old 17-05-2015, 09:45   #137
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

Why does this thread sound like something Smack would be involved in? Maybe he reinvented himself!!
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Old 17-05-2015, 10:07   #138
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Why does this thread sound like something Smack would be involved in? Maybe he reinvented himself!!
I recognise that name from another forum.. Smackdaddy?
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Old 17-05-2015, 11:32   #139
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

So, NO, on the gunboat righting video then? And I haven't followed the winch the sat up to the dinghy idea. What happens when you get the mast to the dinghy? There's still a long way to go.
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Old 17-05-2015, 15:08   #140
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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So, NO, on the gunboat righting video then? And I haven't followed the winch the sat up to the dinghy idea. What happens when you get the mast to the dinghy? There's still a long way to go.
I guess the gunboat righting video is the one at:

At 1:13 you can see how they pull it up with another boat (+ possibly another boat in the opposite direction (another rope visible there)). To do this for a cruising catamaran one would need a really powerful dinghy.

In the dinghy based scenario, after you get the mast to the dinghy level you could do the gunboat trick, or you could use water bags on the other side, or maybe some additional inflatable units to lift the mast higher.

I note that the catamaran can be quite water tight still at the angle of 90 degrees. It would make sense not to let it turn any further. Therefore an Iroquois style masthead float would be nice. The modern version of it would however be an automatic self filling float that doesn't take much space when not in use.

If the boat is lucky, the waves could flip it back upright. If not, the gunboat towing trick could be done with a much weaker dinghy than in the case that the boat is fully upside down. The boat could also have water inside then. All the other tricks could be used too to finish the job.

The biggest problem with the Iroquois approach may be the possibility that the next big wave hits the bottom of the boat and dismasts it. The masthead float should probably be designed so that it lets go if the forces are too big. But if that does not happen, we might be able to save a dry boat.

One more observation. If we assume that a weak mast (with some fuse components) can prevent wind based capsizes, and that even a strong mast would probably break in a big wave based capsize, then one could satisfy with having weak masts. Or would it be better to have a strong mast with an automatic float that would make recovery from a wind based capsize relatively easy, and could also survive a wave based capsize? Automatic release of sheets could be used too to reduce the risk of wind based capsizes.

Catamaran capsizes may be rare, but they do happen, and if we have some relatively cheap tricks available, then why not implement them.
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Old 17-05-2015, 15:58   #141
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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I backed it up some time ago. I did a like for like quote. We moved on from that subtext of the thread quite a while ago but If you have some retrospective compelling argument or proof to the contrary rather than insult then post it. Hopefully though it will not be an echo of every other manufacturer.

Also you could type the words - Catamaran, Capsize and Dead in google and read what that returns.

Forgive me my own assertions as my family is mine and not yours. "Its ok honey, we can go to the Falklands. valhalla360 says cats are perfectly safe and equal to mono's" - Yeh right.

Maybe the delivery company, Reliance that sent the crew of the 40ft cat "Catshot" into a force 9 and certain death had the same idea as you. Cats, rock solid they are. - Funny they found it overturned in such light winds.
You had a screen shot of what appears to be an online insurance quote with no details regarding what you entered and no comparison between the two types. Hardly any type of overwhelming proof of anything.

You could just as easily enter monohull & dead in google. You are making the assertion so the burden is on you to prove it correct if you want people to take you seriously. Also, as others have pointed out, an upside down catamaran makes for a great photo opp. It's rather hard to get a photo of a mono a 1000' down.

Still waiting on anything remotely like a statistical analysis to support your assertion.

You are allowed your own opinion but not your own facts.
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Old 17-05-2015, 16:30   #142
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

To the OP: Buy a mono.
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Old 17-05-2015, 16:40   #143
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Originally Posted by Juho View Post
I guess the gunboat righting video is the one at:

At 1:13 you can see how they pull it up with another boat (+ possibly another boat in the opposite direction (another rope visible there)). To do this for a cruising catamaran one would need a really powerful dinghy.

In the dinghy based scenario, after you get the mast to the dinghy level you could do the gunboat trick, or you could use water bags on the other side, or maybe some additional inflatable units to lift the mast higher.

I note that the catamaran can be quite water tight still at the angle of 90 degrees. It would make sense not to let it turn any further. Therefore an Iroquois style masthead float would be nice. The modern version of it would however be an automatic self filling float that doesn't take much space when not in use.

If the boat is lucky, the waves could flip it back upright. If not, the gunboat towing trick could be done with a much weaker dinghy than in the case that the boat is fully upside down. The boat could also have water inside then. All the other tricks could be used too to finish the job.

The biggest problem with the Iroquois approach may be the possibility that the next big wave hits the bottom of the boat and dismasts it. The masthead float should probably be designed so that it lets go if the forces are too big. But if that does not happen, we might be able to save a dry boat.

One more observation. If we assume that a weak mast (with some fuse components) can prevent wind based capsizes, and that even a strong mast would probably break in a big wave based capsize, then one could satisfy with having weak masts. Or would it be better to have a strong mast with an automatic float that would make recovery from a wind based capsize relatively easy, and could also survive a wave based capsize? Automatic release of sheets could be used too to reduce the risk of wind based capsizes.

Catamaran capsizes may be rare, but they do happen, and if we have some relatively cheap tricks available, then why not implement them.
And pigs can fly. Nothing wrong with a cat but this just goes not fly.
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Old 17-05-2015, 16:43   #144
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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To the OP: Buy a mono.
A mono would certainly sort his problems with catamarans capsizing.
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Old 17-05-2015, 16:45   #145
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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You had a screen shot of what appears to be an online insurance quote with no details regarding what you entered and no comparison between the two types. Hardly any type of overwhelming proof of anything.

You could just as easily enter monohull & dead in google. You are making the assertion so the burden is on you to prove it correct if you want people to take you seriously. Also, as others have pointed out, an upside down catamaran makes for a great photo opp. It's rather hard to get a photo of a mono a 1000' down.

Still waiting on anything remotely like a statistical analysis to support your assertion.

You are allowed your own opinion but not your own facts.
Yes, I could easily enter monohull & dead in google... But the thread here is about terminal capsize of a cat and how to prevent or recover with technology. I think modern mono's have a solution to capsize last time I looked called negative stability.

If you wish to take comments about cats personally then carry on but there is no prize to be won here and incidentally.. I am not anti catamaran but neither am I evangelical about them either.

You have my assertions and they are mine and not yours. No one asks you to believe or accept them for yourself. More over I justified them, again more importantly for myself and not you. If you want to change my assertions then bring something new to the table. No more on this silly exchange please or if you must have the last word then do so with my pleasure but expect no reply from me unless it is of interest and cordial. It's a pointless exchange otherwise and interferes with the thrust of the thread.
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Old 17-05-2015, 16:57   #146
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

So you reckon the ignorance of a couple of insurance companies is proof of a boat's unseaworthiness?


How about the large number of insurers who make no discrimination against cat's in their pricing?


Anyway, there is no large cat that is self righting. And AFAIK, no mono once sunk, can refloat itself. Liferaft or inverted cat. Your choice.


Large cruising cat's simply do not capsize easily:


Multihull Dynamics, Inc. - News Article


Or you could stay home, which would be my advice.
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Old 17-05-2015, 17:22   #147
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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So you reckon the ignorance of a couple of insurance companies is proof of a boat's unseaworthiness?


How about the large number of insurers who make no discrimination against cat's in their pricing?


Anyway, there is no large cat that is self righting. And AFAIK, no mono once sunk, can refloat itself. Liferaft or inverted cat. Your choice.


Large cruising cat's simply do not capsize easily:


Multihull Dynamics, Inc. - News Article


Or you could stay home, which would be my advice.
Excuse me but I am not interested in getting involved in this more over than I have already done so by responding to the comments much earlier on. I understand quite well the algorithms used for risk assessment in this sector and have no interest in debating it. My assertion serves as my "own" index and reason for seeking out and discussing anti-capsize/recovery technology and is not pertinent to the main question.
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Old 17-05-2015, 20:45   #148
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

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Yes, I could easily enter monohull & dead in google... But the thread here is about terminal capsize of a cat and how to prevent or recover with technology. I think modern mono's have a solution to capsize last time I looked called negative stability.
That wont stop you rolling over, it will just mean that if the design remains the same as the design condition, it will recover and right itself. That process can take up to several minutes.

That will not help a crew in the water, or trapped by their lifeline or debris in the cockpit, nor will it save crew below with all manner of missiles flying about the cabin that could be filling with water.

It also wont stop you pitch poling broaching or gybing to capsize because accidents of this nature are usually a calamity of several conditions through tiredness, happen stance, hypothermia and atrocious, even record breaking bad weather.

If you think it is ok to live in a fools paradise it is probably time to consider its even easier to die in one.
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Old 17-05-2015, 22:12   #149
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

A simple fuse in the sheet activated by a height sensitive float in the water will stop a cat capsizing, or pitch poling.. There is a poorly drawn example at https://au.groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/harryproa/files

It only works reliably if the sails can be completely eased on any point of sail, under any load, which is not possible with a mainsail on a stayed mast, and may not be quick enough on a jib sheet requiring multiple wraps around a winch.

An unstayed mast is by itself a good capsize preventer. Not only can the sail weathercock regardless of wind direction or strength, but in a strong gust it bends, automatically depowering the top of the sail.

An unstayed ballestron rig is also a good idea as the sheet loads are low and a single sheet release totally depowers the entire rig.

As for righting after a capsize, a harryproa is a good candidate as it only capsizes to 90 degrees where the buoyant mast stops it going any further. Within seconds of the mast hitting the water, the boat rotates so the mast head is pointing up wind. Windage and wave action may right it from here, flotation under the sail or mast would help.

A better option is to cant the mast 10 degrees to leeward and store heavy weights (batteries, water, etc) low down in the windward hull. This would effectively be self righting, and/or uncapsizable due to wind action. Could still pitchpole, but the self righting would happen once the boat was on it's side.

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Old 17-05-2015, 23:21   #150
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Re: Is there a catamaran of cruising size that can self right unaided?

I love the winch through the botom of the dinghy idea....got a good laugh. What happens if you get the mast up under the dinghy and the boat rights itself. Be ready to be catapulted several hundred feet....And I want to see the pics of the dinghy at the top of the mast once righted. What a story to tell back at the dock.

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