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Old 11-10-2012, 18:21   #16
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Re: Is feasible to buy a used Cat (40/44 feet) in great conditions for US 300K?

Hi Luciano,

I probably have the ideal boat for you: FP Lazezzi 40 Owners version (2003). In very good condition. Asking $245,000. Located near Annapolis USA. Send me an email: philip.w.thomas@gmail.com. and I will send you details and Pics.

Phil
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Old 12-10-2012, 02:50   #17
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Re: Is feasible to buy a used Cat (40/44 feet) in great conditions for US 300K?

If you like charter cats:
Hang out in the caribbean during high season and watch some of these clowns run your beloved charter cat on a reef, just to be towed back into deeper water by 5 or more boatboy combined brute force.
The come back during hurricane season and see how the same boatboys try to maintain a fleet of charter cats that won't be used for weeks. Midlew everywhere.

Charter boats have a hard live, thats their job. Intensive wear and tear, they are stored for month every year without much care. Charter companies only do emergency fixes if something breaks and change the oil every few months regardless of engine hours. That is what they call maintenance. That is how to maximize revenue, a boat on the dock doesn't earn any money. The low resale value after 5 years is not their problem.

Im not saying every owner boat is perfect. Sometimes you wonder how people can live in certain owner boats.
But the chance of finding a boat in nice shape is IMO better in the owner's market.


Depending on the boat size and layout you won't necessarily need an owners layout, though. Our 410 came with the standard 4 cabin / 2 head layout where we could easily shower with two kids at the same time. No way this would work in the 4 head version. The good about a 4 cabin layout is that under passage you can choose the cabin with the least noise and motion.
But in a 380 I would need an owners version to achieve this as the heads are just too small.


It is certainly possible to find a good boat for 300K, with a little luck even for 200K. Our 1999 Lagoon 410 was a never chartered two owner boat and in excellent visual and technical condition with all goodies (A/C, dive compressor, genset, solar, ssb...). When sold she had a 1a survey and only one significant item on the todo list (house batteries) plus some canvas jobs. She went for around 190k USD which was a good deal for the buyer - and me as well as I bought even cheaper.
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Old 13-10-2012, 18:42   #18
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Re: Is feasible to buy a used Cat (40/44 feet) in great conditions for US 300K?

@rabbi - why did you sell if you are looking for the next one? Sounds like you had a gem?
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Old 14-10-2012, 06:03   #19
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Re: Is feasible to buy a used Cat (40/44 feet) in great conditions for US 300K?

We sold at the end of our sabbatical which was always part of the plan.

Went back to work, also part of the plan. But after trying hard for a few months now to re-adjust to the ratrace it seems we don't really want that kind of life anymore.
We are looking for a new boat to escape for weekends and holidays to keep our sanity while saving up for the next trip in two or three years.

So this time I'm looking for a barebones cat, without all the complexities of A/C, watermaker, genset and stuff. We won't need it in the Med for the next few years and these things tend to be a maintenance nightmare if not used regularly. Better to install them if & when you really need them.
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Old 16-10-2012, 05:38   #20
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Re: Is feasible to buy a used Cat (40/44 feet) in great conditions for US 300K?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Griloboat View Post
I am looking to buy a CAT until US $ 300.000 in cash. Ideally not from charters once I plan to live aboard with my family. The more options ( AC, watermaker, eletric whinch, etc...) the better.

Ideally from 2005....

Leopard, Lagoon, Fountaine Pajot *are my favorities.

Where: in the US south East or anywhere in the Caribbean.

Many thanks, Luciano
sure ...look HERE where you'll discover boats offered for sale by their owners.
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Old 16-10-2012, 18:02   #21
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Re: Is feasible to buy a used Cat (40/44 feet) in great conditions for US 300K?

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Originally Posted by jostalli View Post
I would open up your search to include charter versions as there are many more to choose from. Non charter cats are scarce and usually carry a high premium in comparison to the charter cats. If the charter boats scare you then just look for one that is only a few years old. There are plenty of newer Lagoon 400's that you could definitely buy for $300k cash.
I agree. Many charter boats are available around 200k. You can spend your extra 100k outfitting your boat.

Owners versions (used) are scarce, and demand more premium in today's market. However, the new boats going into charter fleet are more commonly owners versions, so this will likely change in the future.

In fact, I ran a thread some months back making the argument that a charter boat is the best buy for a potential cruiser due to the fact that they are very generic, widely available, and can be outfitted to taste. Although often in worn condition, that wear is fairly predictable and is (presumably) already considered in the pricing of the boats.

Why I think ex charter boats are a great buy for cruisers
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Old 17-10-2012, 02:35   #22
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Re: Is feasible to buy a used Cat (40/44 feet) in great conditions for US 300K?

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Originally Posted by ArtM View Post
I agree. Many charter boats are available around 200k. You can spend your extra 100k outfitting your boat.
And after spending that amount you have new equipment on an otherwise worn out, tired ex charter boat that has seen several groundings, litlle mishaps, countless "smart repairs" (you have 1 hour to fix this!).

If you find a good example and want to keep it basically forever it might be a good idea.
But for shorter terms the question is: Will you be able to recover some part of these investments on an ex charter boat? I doubt so, even a good example carries this stigma. You upgrade for 100k and your boat's market value has risen by maybe 20k.


Quote:
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Although often in worn condition, that wear is fairly predictable and is (presumably) already considered in the pricing of the boats.
What charter companies call "qualified maintenance" I would call "fix it". Have you ever seen a charter boat that has had any kind of real upfront mainteance like greasing the winches? I mean checking & improving something before it breaks?

BTW: Most boats of a fleet share the same boat history and maintenance records, showing only the typical oilchange per month plus start/end of season "maintenance". But every boat's history is different. You will never see groundings or accidents listed in this history but somehow these things do happen frequently with charter boats.
These things also happen with owner boats but not as often simply because owners care for their boat (money) and use it more often than 1 week per year so have more experience.
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Old 17-10-2012, 09:31   #23
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Re: Is feasible to buy a used Cat (40/44 feet) in great conditions for US 300K?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbi View Post
And after spending that amount you have new equipment on an otherwise worn out, tired ex charter boat that has seen several groundings, litlle mishaps, countless "smart repairs" (you have 1 hour to fix this!).

If you find a good example and want to keep it basically forever it might be a good idea.
But for shorter terms the question is: Will you be able to recover some part of these investments on an ex charter boat? I doubt so, even a good example carries this stigma. You upgrade for 100k and your boat's market value has risen by maybe 20k.



What charter companies call "qualified maintenance" I would call "fix it". Have you ever seen a charter boat that has had any kind of real upfront mainteance like greasing the winches? I mean checking & improving something before it breaks?

BTW: Most boats of a fleet share the same boat history and maintenance records, showing only the typical oilchange per month plus start/end of season "maintenance". But every boat's history is different. You will never see groundings or accidents listed in this history but somehow these things do happen frequently with charter boats.
These things also happen with owner boats but not as often simply because owners care for their boat (money) and use it more often than 1 week per year so have more experience.
Understood, but I have also seen thousands of boats sitting idly at dock, unvisited for weeks or months at a time, and dozens of boats sold by owners who have been drained of their last dollar by dock fees and maintenance costs.

The owner who takes meticulous care and give advanced maintenance to his boat, IMHO, is never going to sell, and if he does sell it will be at such a premium that, in the end, it will never be worthwhile.

If you are a CRUISER, you can take that excharter onto the water, start sailing and cruising immediately, and take your days and hours learning what is good and bad, greasing what has not been greased, replacing what the surveyor forgot to tell you needed replacement, etc.

In some ways, I prefer this to the boat which arrvies to me in perfect condition, not requiring a minute of maintenance for months at a time.
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Old 17-10-2012, 09:41   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtM

Understood, but I have also seen thousands of boats sitting idly at dock, unvisited for weeks or months at a time, and dozens of boats sold by owners who have been drained of their last dollar by dock fees and maintenance costs.

The owner who takes meticulous care and give advanced maintenance to his boat, IMHO, is never going to sell, and if he does sell it will be at such a premium that, in the end, it will never be worthwhile.

If you are a CRUISER, you can take that excharter onto the water, start sailing and cruising immediately, and take your days and hours learning what is good and bad, greasing what has not been greased, replacing what the surveyor forgot to tell you needed replacement, etc.

In some ways, I prefer this to the boat which arrvies to me in perfect condition, not requiring a minute of maintenance for months at a time.
You've got to be kidding!
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Old 17-10-2012, 09:44   #25
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Re: Is feasible to buy a used Cat (40/44 feet) in great conditions for US 300K?

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You've got to be kidding!
Not kidding. Are you a cruiser or recreational sailor?

This may have to do with different cruising styles, or possibly with wildly unrealistic expectations on my part of having days and weeks of free time to spend tinkering around the boat while underway.

I don't want a decrepit boat with corroded anchor plates, smoke-puffing engines, and rotted decks. But I don't mind a boat with worn but functional components like sails, lines, and winches.

Even that pristeen boat will someday be in old, worn condition. It's going to happen anyway. I'm ok with starting with the old, worn boat (for substantially less money) and little by little bringing it up to my personal cruising configuration and quality standards.

Actually "old" is not right. Ex charters are only 5 years old. A comparably priced privately owned boat is likely to be much older.
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Old 17-10-2012, 09:50   #26
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Originally Posted by ArtM

Not kidding. Are you a cruiser or recreational sailor?
A cruiser. Over 20 years aboard a variety of catamarans.
I could see the advantage in buying a well kept under equipped boat as I like to have the choice of equipment on our boat. But I've never been overjoyed purchasing a boat in all around bad condition.
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Old 18-10-2012, 06:30   #27
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Re: Is feasible to buy a used Cat (40/44 feet) in great conditions for US 300K?

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Actually "old" is not right. Ex charters are only 5 years old.
Buy a ticket to Le Marin / Martinique and have a look at how ex-charter boats look like when they leave the charter fleets.

If you want to look at the bottom end of the market, have a real close look on the Lagoons that are for sale for around 100k EUR.
That might be an eye opener for you how ex charter boats look like after a few years of service.


Tinkering with boat projects for weeks on end is unrealistic, as you say. At least if you have a social life.

1) you won't have that much spare time for that. You will have to go fishing, diving, party, etc. This is what all the others do and being locked in port fixing that boat is not much fun compared to that.
2) your family will most likely not enjoy living in a boat that is a mess and taken apart every other day for some repair or improvement project
3) you will be amazed how time consuming or next to impossible even simple repairs can be if the is no homedepot or westmarine around the corner.
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Old 18-10-2012, 11:39   #28
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Re: Is feasible to buy a used Cat (40/44 feet) in great conditions for US 300K?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rabbi View Post
Buy a ticket to Le Marin / Martinique and have a look at how ex-charter boats look like when they leave the charter fleets.

If you want to look at the bottom end of the market, have a real close look on the Lagoons that are for sale for around 100k EUR.
That might be an eye opener for you how ex charter boats look like after a few years of service.


Tinkering with boat projects for weeks on end is unrealistic, as you say. At least if you have a social life.

1) you won't have that much spare time for that. You will have to go fishing, diving, party, etc. This is what all the others do and being locked in port fixing that boat is not much fun compared to that.
2) your family will most likely not enjoy living in a boat that is a mess and taken apart every other day for some repair or improvement project
3) you will be amazed how time consuming or next to impossible even simple repairs can be if the is no homedepot or westmarine around the corner.
Rabbi, well taken care of owner boats and even new boats are not exempt from the issues you describe. There are plenty of sailing blogs detailing countless repairs, breaks and failures on even brand new boats. So, there is no need to strike fear in the potential charter boat buyer. I chartered boats 9 times this year from multiple companies and it convinced me to look at a charter boat for my next purchase.
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Old 18-10-2012, 12:51   #29
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Re: Is feasible to buy a used Cat (40/44 feet) in great conditions for US 300K?

I tend to disagree - so we have a deal:

you buy the charter boat and I try to get my hands on an owners boat
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Old 18-10-2012, 12:58   #30
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Re: Is feasible to buy a used Cat (40/44 feet) in great conditions for US 300K?

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I tend to disagree - so we have a deal:

you buy the charter boat and I try to get my hands on an owners boat
Good plan. You will just pay more than I do. No problem with that.
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