Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 28-10-2008, 02:15   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Sweden
Boat: Prout 50 Quasar 1980
Posts: 136
Send a message via Skype™ to tolly
Interior quality

It was a reply from fvn on the thread about Admiral cats, that made me start thinking about what quality modern ( for me that would be from late 80's) cats has in interior fittings, woodwork etc.

Part of the reply was "European big productions boats ? Donít let me mention names but I have been in all of them at the show. Probably good project but build at the cheapest. Cheap panel of compressed wood with formica and cabinets with hinges that would not last more than a month of opening or even one time opening in rough seas. Every piece mounted with visible screws and unfinished edges. (you donít see that in the brochure pictures) Engines room where I would put the designer, builder and vendor to change filter and impeller for all their life instead enjoying with tie and sun glasses at the show. Cheap ss and canvas bimini at prices ten times higher that the equivalent and better made jobs you can have in Trinidad now."

Since I'm most experienced in older and larger wooden boats (till now), were you safely could hang yourself (not by the neck) in any door without the risk of it breaking anywhere, and every cabinet door is constructed to last almost the boats life, I haven't thought of the problem.

Question is if there is a major difference in the quality thinking in different constructors/builders/regions?
It wouldn't necessarily has to be specific brands, but perhaps the general thinking about quality in certain regions.
For example, as being from Sweden, people in the auto business often have similar thoughts about the quality in cars from France, compared with cars from Germany, Sweden, USA, Great Britain etc. Of course there are also differences between brands. Not saying what the thoughts are, but people think there are major differences.

Of course I don't mean a cruising cat has to be built as a battle ship, but never the less to me this is an important issue, because it gives me a feeling of how much of a skilled boatbuilder it is.
Also for me looking for a cat so far "at a distance", the more I learn, the better chance of good result in the end.

Rolf
__________________

__________________
tolly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-10-2008, 09:35   #2
CF Adviser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wherever our boat is; Playa Zaragoza, Isla Margarita
Boat: 1994 Solaris Sunstream 40
Posts: 2,439
Tolly, it strikes me that there are 2 things which tend to bring down the 'quality' of the interior/construction of most production cats:

1. Weight. Weight is often cited as the real enemy of performance in a cat, and consequently, the seemingly incessant demand by the public for greater interior volume has led to lighter-weight construction/materials in the interior.

2. Price. Obviously, there is a greater market for less expensive boats. Since the cost of production of a multi is typically much higher than a mono (huge and elaborate molds, more sophisticated materials to keep weight down, larger manufacturing facilities because of the size of the molds; greater costs associated with shipping, redundant engines etc) the price must be reduced somewhere. Yes, it is often found in the fit, finish and solidity of the interior.

In the past, there were a number of cats that were manufactured with very solid, if not necessarily luxurious interiors at a competitive price. The Prouts, Catalacs, Solaris yachts, for example, all were built to Lloyd's 100 A1 standards and this meant that interior bulkheads/cabinets were properly tabbed into the hull itself; it also meant thicker marine plywood for all structural bulkheads as well as durable hardware like fixed portlights with aluminum frames and tempered glass. The combination of this and narrower BOA meant that the boats were rock-solid and tended not to suffer from racking or flex at the bridgedeck, even in the worst conditions.

This kind of construction is typically quite expensive, however, because it is much more labour intensive (as well as material intensive, due to the relatively greater scantilings required by Lloyds). When the French and others started producing cats at a comparable price that had much more interior space (and sometimes performance potential), albeit with less structural integrity, the market responded. So now we are typically left with cats much as you describe them (at least in the moderate price range - interior volume can be kept up while keeping weight down, at a price).

It may well be that some day a market will return for a narrower, solidly constructed cat with a 'Prout', or heavily stayed cutter rig. One where the owner would prefer more solid materials and a more solid build in the interior (and elsewhere) - and be prepared to sacrifice some performance (and even some space) to get it. An ocean going boat with strength, durability and a rig that will take you anywhere - at a moderate price. I guess I am thinking of something like the resurgance in the early 1970's of heavily built monohulls intended purely for long-distance cruising - remember the Westsail 32 ( although the cat I am thinking of should be able to perform much better in a variety of conditions than the Westsail).

Anyway, for now it seems the market has spoken - and the demand is for lightly built, relatively poorly finished cats with huge interior space and reasonably decent performance in light air.

Brad
__________________

__________________
Southern Star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-10-2008, 10:31   #3
CF Adviser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wherever our boat is; Playa Zaragoza, Isla Margarita
Boat: 1994 Solaris Sunstream 40
Posts: 2,439
PS I am not suggesting that there would be a market for boats pulled from the vintage molds for Prouts etc., but rather a more modern design in appearance that nevertheless retains the rig, solid construction and a LOA/BOA ratio of slightly less than 2:1 - say in the range of 2.2 to 2.4/1. All things being equal, will there be a resulting increase in the risk of capsize? Yes, but all things won't be equal.

A combination of a lower center of gravity, lower center of effort on the sail plan and increased displacement have led to an incredible safety record for Prouts etc. when used offshore. While the relatively narrow beam will tend to reduce capsize resistance, if will also tend to increase resistance to pitchpoling. And the resistance to capsize can be improved by the following:

1. galley down arrangement.
2. lower bridgedeck, possible because the required bridgedeck clearance is inversely proportional to the beam between the hulls.
3. capsize resistance increases with displacement, and this relatively 'heavy' construction will tend to increase displacment.
4. shallow fixed keels or lifting boards that will create less athwartships resistance in heavy seas.
5. sail area spread more for and aft - ie. 'Prout', or cutter rig lowers CE.

Regardless of the other arguments concerning the relative merits of wider/narrower beam, the narrower beam will enable a more solid boat to be built at a lower cost.

Brad
__________________
Southern Star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-10-2008, 12:47   #4
Eternal Member
 
imagine2frolic's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Las Brisas Panama AGAIN!
Boat: Simpson, Catamaran, 46ft. IMAGINE
Posts: 4,508
Images: 123
Unfortunatley it takes a lot of time to build a cat yourself. It is expensive to have a custom built by a yard. You can have partial work done by a yard, and some yourself. This is what the previous owner & co-builder of my cat did. Farmed out the cabinetry, and a perfect fit for the owner cat was made. I am reaping the rewards.
__________________
SAILING is not always a slick magazine cover!
BORROWED..No single one of is as smart as all of us!
http://sailingwithcancer.blogspot.com/
imagine2frolic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29-10-2008, 14:56   #5
Senior Cruiser
 
44'cruisingcat's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,452
Images: 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by Southern Star View Post
2. lower bridgedeck, possible because the required bridgedeck clearance is inversely proportional to the beam between the hulls.

Brad
I agree with most of what you said, but inversely proportional?
__________________
44'cruisingcat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2008, 06:06   #6
CF Adviser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wherever our boat is; Playa Zaragoza, Isla Margarita
Boat: 1994 Solaris Sunstream 40
Posts: 2,439
44'cruisingcat, you are of course correct. The required bridgedeck clearance increases with an increase in beam between the hulls.

Brad
__________________
Southern Star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2008, 09:05   #7
Moderator Emeritus
 
David M's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: San Francisco Bay
Boat: research vessel
Posts: 10,150
Nice cabinetry, expensive, heavy <-------> Cheap looking cabinetry, faster boat, less expensive.

It's all a matter of what you prefer.
__________________
David

Life begins where land ends.
David M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2008, 13:01   #8
Eternal Member
 
imagine2frolic's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Las Brisas Panama AGAIN!
Boat: Simpson, Catamaran, 46ft. IMAGINE
Posts: 4,508
Images: 123
I don't think you have to have heavy cabinetry to look nice. I am sure mine was extremely expensive, but the panels are extremely light weight. I am told they are African Ash. I know they are veneer, because I had some water damage, and the layers split. I epoxied them back together, and refinished them with west 207 hardner. Then I applied epifane.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMAGINE SALON COUNTER.jpg
Views:	165
Size:	42.2 KB
ID:	5789  
__________________
SAILING is not always a slick magazine cover!
BORROWED..No single one of is as smart as all of us!
http://sailingwithcancer.blogspot.com/
imagine2frolic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-11-2008, 21:59   #9
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Vancouver, Can.
Boat: Woods 40' catamaran
Posts: 277
Most of my cabinetry is Carbon uni skins on Nomex honeycomb core.
__________________
Evan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-11-2008, 11:05   #10
Marine Service Provider
 
fastcat435's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Amstelveen Netherlands
Boat: FastCat 445 Green Motion
Posts: 1,649
Images: 10
Send a message via Skype™ to fastcat435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evan View Post
Most of my cabinetry is Carbon uni skins on Nomex honeycomb core.
That must look very modern and sleek please send in pictures ?

Greetings

Gideon
__________________
fastcat435 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2008, 13:24   #11
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 69
Is there any reason (other than tradition) that interiors particularly on older boats are dark wood. They are usually beautiful but given the small amount of light available in the interior it seems odd.

sk
__________________
shawnkillam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2008, 00:48   #12
Moderator
 
Boracay's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Pelican Bay, Great Sandy National Park
Boat: Steel Roberts Offshore 44
Posts: 5,175
Images: 18
Dark wood...

Some finishes darken with age.
__________________

__________________
Rust never sleeps
Boracay Blog.
Boracay is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
interior

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Air Quality for Liveaboards ssullivan Health, Safety & Related Gear 99 07-04-2013 13:56
Moody quality concerns? dprose Monohull Sailboats 1 12-02-2008 17:29
Winch Quality/Price Ratio Intentional Drifter Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 6 19-11-2007 20:26
Quality Control - Stainless? ssullivan Construction, Maintenance & Refit 20 29-01-2007 10:33
A recomendation for quality service irwinsailor Construction, Maintenance & Refit 5 16-06-2005 01:56



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:34.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.