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Old 14-09-2008, 03:23   #16
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Have I missed something, the price that is being mentioned is $700,000 which in 's Sterling is about (at the moment ie. 1.78$ to the ) 395,000 but I thought the price was in EURO's ie.700,000 E's = 555,000 approx ie 1.26 euro to the .
This to me makes a huge difference to what the customer should expect in terms of delivery/completion times and standards of finishing etc.
Is the price in USD or EURO's, can someone please enlighten me.???
Thanks
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Old 14-09-2008, 03:27   #17
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Fastcat quality/build issues

My understanding from the blog, is that these folks ordered a boat with certain defined specifications.

They move from the UK down to South Africa just prior to the planned launch date.

Boat gets launched - after a delay due to an accident.

OK accidents happen.

Then they start taking a look at what Fastcats have made, and find a large number of things that are not "as new" . Surfaces have not been protected during the latter part of the build.

The builder sets about rectifying these issues as he should. This process takes such a long time that the buyers have to go and get extended visas to stay in the country.

While waiting for the yard to get things sorted out, other issues arise which seem to indicate very poor quality control or lack of boat building knowledge.

Just to mention a few:
Hull leak
Leaking Fuel tank.
Galvanic corrosion underwater
Galvanic corrosion of the mast and mast base.

Aussiesuede- I can understand your point of view, but not everyone can afford to keep their exsisiting house indefinately, while some builder muddles through the finishing of a boat or a second house.

If you order a product from a builder who constantly "blows his horn" about his attention to details, like these poor folks have, then they should rightly expect to get a product that is in good order.

There will always be some issues on a new boat, but Hull leaks, leaking fuel tanks and some of the other issues mentioned are not "standard issues"

IMO it should not take 3-4 months and still counting to get a boat up to scratch!!

It seems that Fastcats are not only not as fast as they claim,the quality and finish also seems to be sub standard.

I am looking forward to see the weight figures when they get the boat weighed on calibrated scales.

Anybody willing to put money on that the multiple weight claims we have seen here turn out to be exagerrated?

Any takers? I will place 100$ on the boat being heavier than claimed.

I wonder whether the other Fastcat owner had similar issues? I saw his blog some time ago, but didn't read much it was mostly in Dutch.

Alan
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Old 14-09-2008, 03:32   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ireaney View Post
Have I missed something, the price that is being mentioned is $700,000 which in 's Sterling is about (at the moment ie. 1.78$ to the ) 395,000 but I thought the price was in EURO's ie.700,000 E's = 555,000 approx ie 1.26 euro to the .
This to me makes a huge difference to what the customer should expect in terms of delivery/completion times and standards of finishing etc.
Is the price in USD or EURO's, can someone please enlighten me.???
Thanks
Ian

I don't know the actual price, I had an old pricelist from around 2005 and used the basic price. At that time it was around 450 k without options.

You are probably right, the price is probably quite a bit higher, but I didn't know what it is, so I stated more than 700kUSD to be on the safe side.


Maybe someone has a more up to date price indication. I'm sure Gideon can answer on the vendors list.

Alan
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Old 14-09-2008, 03:48   #19
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Originally Posted by Nordic cat View Post

I wonder whether the other Fastcat owner had similar issues? I saw his blog some time ago, but didn't read much it was mostly in Dutch.

Alan
I'm sure everyone is interested in reading this blog. No, I haven't read it yet....but I will.

Translation with a bit of help from Google
Translated version of http://seawing.be/
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Old 14-09-2008, 05:49   #20
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I think these blogs illustrate the difference you get between a production boat and what is essentially a custom boat.

As a comparison, the snagging list on my Privilege (a premium priced boat - small volume but nevertheless production run - but not ridiculously expensive) amounted to two things... a two inch section of wood veneer on the hand rail down into the hull that wasn't glued on properly and a slightly misplaced jammer on the mast which meant the gennaker halyard was rubbing slightly where it entered the mast.

Later found a 3rd item as the fuel guage for the diesel tank wasn't working. It showed full with a full tank and full when it was nearly empty.

All very minor points and believe me, my wife is 'picky' about the cosmetics of the boat and I'm the same over mechanical and electrical matters.
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Old 14-09-2008, 08:08   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nordic cat View Post

I am looking forward to see the weight figures when they get the boat weighed on calibrated scales.
I don't know about yachts, but a ships displacement (weight) is measured by taking the trim at the bow and at the stern. (along with a measurement at the plimsoll mark to account for hogging or sagging..which would be irrelevant for yachts) What this does is produce a figure for volume below the waterline which translates directly to weight.

Could this not be done with a yacht?
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Old 14-09-2008, 10:08   #22
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As a Naval Architect of commercial boats, where all the boats are "one offs" and not on a production line, it is very common to have lists of defects in the multiple pages, even from well respected builders. Yes, hull leaks and a tank leak are serious, but you can fix things like that. And they do happen.

Frankly I'm amazed that Fastcats went along with the surveyor's recommendations. If it's not a 'defect' and just an opinion about how the boat is built, then who is to say who is right? If a surveyor told me "well I think that XX should be bigger" I'd really question how he can know better than the designer of the boat.

I think Bigcat has a real problem with Gideon and is using this to bash his boats as some of his thoughts don't seem to be part of the owner's reports
Quote:
"I am compelled to wonder about basic structural issues such as the adequacy of the scantlings 'as built.' No backing plates where needed and leaky watertight bulkheads give one pause."
- Bigcat

It appears that one set of backing plates was suggested by the surveyor and the leaking watertight bulkhead was at a hatch, not the bulkhead itself. Why question the scantlings of something you've never seen the plans for or how it was built?

As for it being late, I've never seen a custom boat built on time (well one, but it had a big penalty clause and the defect list was longer than usual)

With weight of yachts, it's easier to pick them up with a load cell. You could measure drafts as you suggest, but who knows how close the boat was built compared to the lines plan. Also, there won't be painted on draft marks to measure from, so you measure from the sheer, which may be tricky with rubrails and the like. (i.e. what's the true deck line)
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Old 14-09-2008, 10:41   #23
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Evan
I am not going to get into a Gideon style thread but frankly I was amazed at the attitude you demonstrated towards the customer in your post.

You seem to suggest that the list of defects so far detailed are normal for a new boat as is the long delay in delivery. You firther seem to want to personalise the matter as some sort of ding dong between two forum members.

I for one have suffered a lot from some attitudes demonstrated in the Marine industry - I fought hard for a refund of well over 1m on my last boat and got it. There are some elements within the marine industry that have an attitude that frankly stinks when it comes to providing a decent service to the customer. These drag the name of the industry down which is a bit unfair on those parts trying their best.

You place yourself on here as an expert - an Naval Architect - but give no details other than the name making it very difficult to judge the weight of your opinions. It may help if you fill out more of your profile so we all know who you are.

In the meantime, I may be old fashioned but, whilst I fully accept a snagging list on any boat, I believe that if every potential customer was told of the experiences of boats such as Butterfly with photos and details plus the claimed delays those potential customers may well choose to go elsewhere. You seem to think that they should just shut up an accept long delays and poor workmanship ..... I am frankly amazed.,,,, but not surprised
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Old 14-09-2008, 13:29   #24
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Fastcat and Butterfly issues

As Nordic Cat said, the Butterfly folks didn't think they were going to be involved in the construction-They thought that they were showing up to take ownership of their boat when it would be finished.

At the back of my mind concerning scantlings is a remark repeatedly made by the Fastcat's builder on this website, to the effect that he had gotten the hull thickness notably thinner than the architect had intended. Contrary to his belief, this is not a good thing. When you do this, the hull gets weaker, because you have lessend the separation of the skins which are bearing the loads. This makes the hulls scantlings 'as built' different than the designer had calculated. When I pointed this out, Fastcat didn't reply, nor did he answer my query as to whether he had told the designer this and received approval for the change.
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Old 14-09-2008, 13:55   #25
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Here is an interesting blog of the delivery captain who recently delivered a new Chris White Atlantic 57 from Chili to San Diego. This was the first or 2nd 57 that had been built in Chili so essentially a one off boat. The delivery captain describes the problems they had on the way to San Diego. There were probably other problems that did not need immediate attentions, yet he describes the ones that required immediate repair so they could get to the destination.

To be clear, I would buy a boat from Chris White and I believe he is a respected builder/designer, but even he could not avoid some problems on a new build.
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Old 14-09-2008, 14:11   #26
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Nordic Cat, BigCat and everyone else,

Let me be very clear. This thread was started to discuss a well written sailing blog. This is not a thread to, yet again, air personal agendas against FastCat and his products, design, anchoring or speed characteristics.

This blog has already been used as a tool to harrass FastCat.

If this thread continues to discuss those issues, instead of the topic of a well written sailing blog, then it will be closed and infractions will be handed out.

Thank you.
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Old 14-09-2008, 14:21   #27
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[quote=Evan;205240]As a Naval Architect of commercial boats, where all the boats are "one offs" and not on a production line, it is very common to have lists of defects in the multiple pages, even from well respected builders. Yes, hull leaks and a tank leak are serious, but you can fix things like that. And they do happen.

Frankly I'm amazed that Fastcats went along with the surveyor's recommendations. If it's not a 'defect' and just an opinion about how the boat is built, then who is to say who is right? If a surveyor told me "well I think that XX should be bigger" I'd really question how he can know better than the designer of the boat.


Evan,

I trhink we need to distinguish between 2 proffesional parties, (a shipyard and a shipping company) and a private person buying from a proffesional boatbuilder (or who claims to be).

Commercial boats are often built to a class survey of some kind, and the classifying society has surveyors on site during the build, as well as during commisioning and sea trials.

Yes the snag list can be large,but the size and complexity of these commercial vessels is probably no comparison to a 44 ft. sailboat. Snags normally get dealt with in a professional manner. Nobody accepts a 4 month delay, least of all the builders, as it has a knock on effect to the other builds that are on going. Not to mention the builders reputation, which is his biggest asset when negotiating new orders at a higher price than his competitors.

The reason for Fastcat accepting the surveyors reccomendations might be wholly self serving. Could it be that they had not followed the designers specification in the first place? Could it just be good old common sense? We don't know and never will know the truth methinks.

And designers also make mistakes, if they don't follow each build themselves, and the state of the vessel a few years down the road, there is no feedback loop, for them to learn from. Only major issues get back to them if ever.

CE certification for production vessels such as these means that after the first vessel is approved, then the yard is "self certifying" by following the same procedures and methods, as well as using CE certified equipment and parts.

By this definition, these boats are not custom boats, if they are then each one needs to be certified ans surveyed individually. BY this definition, I doubt that Butterfly is a custom boat.

This is the 4th boat built, so the issues we are seeing here can't be excused by the boats being custom boats IMO.

More like bad workmanship, poor management and lack of Quality Control.


I originally seriously looked at ordering a Fastcat, after reading this blog, I'm really pleased that my "BS alarm system" was in good order, and that I took heed of the alarm bells ringing.

Alan
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Old 14-09-2008, 14:32   #28
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the hull thickness is exactly as it should be and as it was originally designed and I have never told you the thickness was changed or the laminate made thinner.
I have read the complete surveyors report and also how it ended see below
there was nothing that is not being taken care of or serious in the complete report,
Below you find the conclusion of the surveyor.
CONCLUSIONS
We conclude that once completed, the soundly constructed hulls, deck, superstructure and fittings will provide you will safe/conformable cruising, sound resale value and a generally easily insurable craft.

Despite the moderate displacement of the boat (10 000kg), we submit that the sleek and symmetrical shape of the water plane area will allow for above average sail performance.


Quote:
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As Nordic Cat said, the Butterfly folks didn't think they were going to be involved in the construction-They thought that they were showing up to take ownership of their boat when it would be finished.

At the back of my mind concerning scantlings is a remark repeatedly made by the Fastcat's builder on this website, to the effect that he had gotten the hull thickness notably thinner than the architect had intended. Contrary to his belief, this is not a good thing. When you do this, the hull gets weaker, because you have lessend the separation of the skins which are bearing the loads. This makes the hulls scantlings 'as built' different than the designer had calculated. When I pointed this out, Fastcat didn't reply, nor did he answer my query as to whether he had told the designer this and received approval for the change.
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Old 14-09-2008, 15:10   #29
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Chris White isn't a boat builder, and isn't Chilean

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keegan View Post
Valdivia, and ES(Espiritu Santi, the name of the boat we will be sailing) | Ness's Travels


Here is an interesting blog of the delivery captain who recently delivered a new Chris White Atlantic 57 from Chili to San Diego. This was the first or 2nd 57 that had been built in Chili so essentially a one off boat. The delivery captain describes the problems they had on the way to San Diego. There were probably other problems that did not need immediate attentions, yet he describes the ones that required immediate repair so they could get to the destination.

To be clear, I would buy a boat from Chris White and I believe he is a respected builder/designer, but even he could not avoid some problems on a new build.
Chris White is not a boat builder, and he does not live in Chile. See:
Chris White Designs He is also the author of an excellent book on multihulls which I own and have read, "The Cruising Multihull."
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Old 14-09-2008, 16:16   #30
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Chris White is not a boat builder, and he does not live in Chile. See:
Chris White Designs He is also the author of an excellent book on multihulls which I own and have read, "The Cruising Multihull."
Chris does actively take part in the building process of his Atlantic Cats. I never said he lived in Chile. He works closely with yards and the customer to create the Atlantic Cats
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