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Old 17-12-2014, 03:57   #31
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Re: Inexpensive Production/Custom Used Cat Recommendations

On the "stretched" hull idea, I'd already planned on that one. As in a couple of decades back, when I first started studying multis. It only makes sense, & I've yet to meet anyone who's regretted it, regardless of who designed the boat.
Though having Boatsmith do it is not the way to go about it, his quote on such was astronomical. Even though in reality, it's not a tough mod.

Also, IMO, a cat sans bridgedeck cabin is a "3-season" boat, if that. As even if you have a heater in each hull, I'd think that you'd likely wind up "living" primarily in just one of them.
I know that living on my center cockpit Searunner in the Winter was a big pain in the rear, even though I was in San Diego, & am not a cold sensitive person.
So an open bridgedeck cat would rule out cruising, & or living in a lot of locales.
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Old 17-12-2014, 08:05   #32
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Re: Inexpensive Production/Custom Used Cat Recommendations

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Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
On the "stretched" hull idea, I'd already planned on that one. As in a couple of decades back, when I first started studying multis. It only makes sense, & I've yet to meet anyone who's regretted it, regardless of who designed the boat.
Though having Boatsmith do it is not the way to go about it, his quote on such was astronomical. Even though in reality, it's not a tough mod.

Also, IMO, a cat sans bridgedeck cabin is a "3-season" boat, if that. As even if you have a heater in each hull, I'd think that you'd likely wind up "living" primarily in just one of them.
I know that living on my center cockpit Searunner in the Winter was a big pain in the rear, even though I was in San Diego, & am not a cold sensitive person.
So an open bridgedeck cat would rule out cruising, & or living in a lot of locales.
Perhaps you would be so kind as to publish said "quote". If you are going to publicly label my prices as astronomical I think to be fair you should provide some evidence. If not you are just shooting off your mouth as a continued part of your 20 some year research project. You want a custom built 35' bridgedeck cat for sub 75k??? my momma said when you had some good stash you should share.
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Old 17-12-2014, 08:28   #33
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Re: Inexpensive Production/Custom Used Cat Recommendations

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Originally Posted by Tx J View Post
I've been lusting after an Island Packet "Packet Cat 35" for a while: PACKET CAT 35 (ISLAND PACKET) sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

Don't know if it's anywhere within your parameters (believe the owners website has some brochures, plans, etc), haven't seen them discussed around here.
They're a pretty rare cat, only 41 built from 1993-98, don't know what they cost used today (think I found a new price somewhere in the info links, it was upper moderate back then, looked on Yachtworld a while ago and there were one or two listed at reasonable $).
Nice, roomy, comfortable, competent looking boats though.
I haven't checked on cost lately but when we were looking, they a bit on the pricy side but appeared to be a nice cruising boat, solid with a lot of living space. They weren't a high performance boat.
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Old 17-12-2014, 08:51   #34
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Re: Inexpensive Production/Custom Used Cat Recommendations

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Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
downunder,
Thanks for the tip. I actually had a chat with Boatsmith, in FL, a few months ago. And I mentioned pondering that option, above.

As to deck pods on the 38' Wharram, it's designed with one. Or at least the 38's on their website seem to have'em.
noted:
Im a little out of the picture with Wharrams present feelings on this

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED
Were I to build one, I'd figure out a way to work in some sort of semi-permanent deck cabin. Albeit one abridged in size. But that way you could go from one hull to the other sans oilskins. And drive the thing, or hang out in/from a proper saloon.
- For if naught else, the main hatches in the hulls need proper turtles/garages. As even with them, cats without bridgedeck cabins can "catch" a lot of water via their hatches, even closed. And I ain't talking about rain either. See the below video.

Even John Shuttleworth's finally caved on that point, with his designs. He went from pram hoods on his early boats, even the first generation of the Tekron 35', to giving it essentially a bridgedeck cabin for each hull. With a semi-protected helming stations behind each one.
Plus re-working his 31' cat, so that it has a full bridgedeck cabin option - FINALLY. Though as has been said before, the Brits are different (and I'm half Scottish - 1st gen. Yeah, Mum came over on the boat, literally.)

Here's a quick (1:02min) video of Shuttleworth's 31' cats, which shows EXACTLY why I'm Vehement about some "For Real" on deck, & hatch protection on multi's.

Reading the story behind the boats in the video's worth it, they were built by a class of High School students, as part of a school project. Also on his site are some EXCELLENT articles, which has the math, explaining why 90-something% of production cruising cats are slugs.
As I recall it
Wharram was one of the first to publish a paper on catamaran dynamic stability which was picked up later either by Yachting World or Yachting Monthly back in the early 80's. Now almost every serious cat sailor is familiar with these forms of analysis. The Ariki design featured by Boatsmith came from that period.

It must be the prettiest most practical Wharram I have ever seen
http://youtu.be/LLitXQqSF0Q

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED
Back to the Wharram boats, on the 38's, they're essentially "Dutch Gaff" rigs, which, yes, are the ancient forerunners of squarehead mains. Paul Bieker (as in the one who had a Big hand in the AC catamaran designs) has been an advocate of them for ages. And even designed a high performance day sailer for the Port Townsend (WA) Wooden Boat School, with said rig. It's a neat boat, & small enough that the students can see, day by day, almost, how a boat goes from; prints, to lofting, to build & launch. Plus they're Fun, & responsive to sail.

Anyway, I can't see any reason not to add several feet to the hoist on the masts of the 38'. Particularly as, math aside (in my other ref. to this design), the boats just look glued to the water in any kind of light air (as honestly, so do pretty much all of his designs). Adding 30lbs aloft ain't going to hurt the RM on those boats.

Also, I kind of got used to doing wind speed (or close) when it was blowing 5kts, in my old boat. Which IMHO, is how it should be.
I'm not a fan of motoring, unless it's the only way to escape swarms of bugs (knock on wood). That or make port prior to them running out of cold beer, & the kitchen closing - ergo, no delicious steaks, spuds, salads, & desert.

So yeah, needs be, I'll figure out how to add 20-30% more sail area to dang near anything. Without going to a taller spar.
Still Id be a little careful how I approached that
perhaps a ketch rig is worth considering
anyhoo, its not like you cant work out the compromises for yourself

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED
I mean despite the foolish, racer v. cruiser animosity, cruisers surely don't complain about trickle down technology... like say Code 0's. A third more interior room for a given boat length, Or boats which sail well when it's light, & hobby horse 1/4th of what 25yr old designs do.

Oh, & thanks for the link to those builders. I've got another one somewhere too, about some guys who put a Wharram on a "diet" via the WRC approach. I can't help but wonder how many have been built in, perish the thought, foam core?
well his (Wharram) partner (I think her names Boone) seem to have a justifiable flowery view full of praise of the versions Boatsmith had been offering. Damn nice work and a well thought out boat. maybe we are talking some money, but I think the builder earns it on this presentation....

http://youtu.be/C3oU4026qrU
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Old 17-12-2014, 09:12   #35
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Re: Inexpensive Production/Custom Used Cat Recommendations

Here is an update on our latest boat.
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Old 17-12-2014, 09:16   #36
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Re: Inexpensive Production/Custom Used Cat Recommendations

Thanks Zulu, I hadn't noticed your link.
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Old 17-12-2014, 09:22   #37
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Re: Inexpensive Production/Custom Used Cat Recommendations

Looks beautiful. Nice work!
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Old 17-12-2014, 14:34   #38
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Re: Inexpensive Production/Custom Used Cat Recommendations

Seems to be a few similar threads, I think I'll join in. I'd like a boat with better performance and more luxury than a Gunboat 60, and I want it for less than $25k.


I'm less picky than some, I don't even care if it's galley up or down...


If anyone finds one, please don't buy it yourself, PM me.
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Old 17-12-2014, 16:07   #39
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Re: Inexpensive Production/Custom Used Cat Recommendations

If it's galley down, I'm keeping it. If it's galley up, I'll pass it on to you
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Old 18-12-2014, 02:09   #40
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Post Re: Inexpensive Production/Custom Used Cat Recommendations

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatsmith View Post
Perhaps you would be so kind as to publish said "quote". If you are going to publicly label my prices as astronomical I think to be fair you should provide some evidence. If not you are just shooting off your mouth as a continued part of your 20 some year research project. You want a custom built 35' bridgedeck cat for sub 75k??? my momma said when you had some good stash you should share.
My sincere apologies for posting such a statement openly. If I could go back & undo it, I would.

I am definitely not looking for a fight, however, it definitely sounds as if you are.
As to what "my momma said when you had some good stash you should share." means, do you care to extrapolate on that?
For while I definitely don't understand your full meaning there in, the statement sounds like one designed to start or fan the flames of a problem, not fix one. And fixing one is what I am attempting to do.

As to the original topic (of this thread), I never once, said that I wanted a custom built 35' bridgedeck cat. Particularly not a new one, & especially not for less than $75k. If anyone's under that impression, it's incorrect. For my original words when I started this thread were:



"Hi,
I'm curious to hear folks ideas in terms of what to look for/at, & where, in terms of inexpensive (sub-$75k), quality, used; production, & well designed, home built catamarans.

The boat would need to have reasonable to outstanding sailing performance. Good bridgedeck clearance, & sea keeping qualities. And more than likely be in the mid-30' range, give or take.
Ah, & boats located in North America or close there to, definitely get priority attention, but this isn't an absolutely mandatory requirement.

I have a few designs, makes, & places to look for boats meeting these requirements, but am looking for more input & ideas. AKA pretty much any, & all reasonable suggestions will be both welcome, & entertained.

Thanks in advance"


If one takes the time to read through the above/original statement, no where in it, is mention made to buying a custom built 35' Bridgedeck cat. The key words used, were & are; Used Production, or Quality Home Built.

To answer your question on hull prices. In our phone conversation on Eclipse hulls, when I asked as to their price, I was told that a pair of them would run about $25k. A figure, more or less on par with a publicly listed price, by you, several months ago 2014 Boatsmith Eclipse 32 for sale in West Palm Beach Florida - United States Something easy enough to find by doing a basic internet search. Which I just did only moments ago.
Also when I asked as to what shipping costs were like, in the same conversation, you stated that for a pair of hulls, it was $2.25/mile.

In our phone conversation, when I asked how much it would be if I wanted the hulls to be 3' longer, I was told that it'd cost me an extra $17k, or in that neighborhood, to "stretch" them to said dimensions. Basically, about 165% or so, of the base price of the hulls.
This was more than I was looking to spend. Albeit, I categorically did not state as much at the time (or any other, until my goof on here). Would $5k-$10k have worked/been reasonable for me, yeah. However, the numbers which I was quoted weren't anywhere close to such.

But bottom line, given that it was a phone conversation, neither one of us has anything written, to back up what was or wasn't discussed. And I'm happy to let the issue drop. For I gather that little will be worked out about it in this manner. And the furthest thing from my mind when I started this thread, was to wind up in a pissing match with someone. I was just looking for assistance with boat ideas.
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Old 18-12-2014, 03:07   #41
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Re: Inexpensive Production/Custom Used Cat Recommendations

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Originally Posted by Tx J View Post
I've been lusting after an Island Packet "Packet Cat 35" for a while: PACKET CAT 35 (ISLAND PACKET) sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

Don't know if it's anywhere within your parameters (believe the owners website has some brochures, plans, etc), haven't seen them discussed around here.
They're a pretty rare cat, only 41 built from 1993-98, don't know what they cost used today (think I found a new price somewhere in the info links, it was upper moderate back then, looked on Yachtworld a while ago and there were one or two listed at reasonable $).
Nice, roomy, comfortable, competent looking boats though.
I've seen 3 w structural issues. The hulls are over built packet style and imho the bridgedeck and keels have issues handling it

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Old 18-12-2014, 05:30   #42
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Re: Inexpensive Production/Custom Used Cat Recommendations

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
Seems to be a few similar threads, I think I'll join in. I'd like a boat with better performance and more luxury than a Gunboat 60, and I want it for less than $25k.


I'm less picky than some, I don't even care if it's galley up or down...


If anyone finds one, please don't buy it yourself, PM me.
I want your boat and I want you to pay me $10k to take it away, its only fair
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Old 18-12-2014, 05:35   #43
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Re: Inexpensive Production/Custom Used Cat Recommendations

I believe the Packet is most correctly classified as a barge.
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Old 18-12-2014, 07:15   #44
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Re: Inexpensive Production/Custom Used Cat Recommendations

Here's how this thing works...

You get to choose any two: price, comfort, speed. You have your price, now you get to choose between comfort and speed.

Endeavorcats and Americats (from the same molds IIRC) are in your range, but they don't sail particularly well and the bridges aren't high. Gemini is also similar concept

Wharram is the best choice in all three of your stated parameters, IMO

There are some smaller Shuttleworths around that will answer your speed and seakeeping needs, but they are open bridge cats. There was one for sale at the catamaransite page if i recall

Then, back to the not so fast, are things like Hirondelle, Catalac, Iroquois, old Prouts, the 70s style cats like those

Another option, depending on your inclination, is of course to buy something that will need fixing up...
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Old 18-12-2014, 10:34   #45
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Re: Inexpensive Production/Custom Used Cat Recommendations

Quote:
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I believe the Packet is most correctly classified as a barge.

Your being to kind:-)
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