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Old 15-12-2014, 05:31   #16
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Re: Inexpensive Production/Custom Used Cat Recommendations

Research the Canadian built PDQ cat. Morphed into Antares when moved offshore. Those that can be acquired on the Great Lakes only live in fresh water for 5 months per year.
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Old 15-12-2014, 06:33   #17
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Re: Inexpensive Production/Custom Used Cat Recommendations

No boat is going to have all those qualities at a low price (even at a high price, there will be sacrafices in the 30-35' range).
- If you want performance to the exclusion of all else, something like a stillette will give you blistering speed but almost no accomodation and definetly not an offshore boat.
- Most of the production boats while able to outperform most similar mono's won't give you blistering double digit speeds except in specific rare condiitions and heavily loaded they slow down.
- High bridge deck clearance means major sacrafices in interior accomodations.

Set your priorities and we can help direct you to better options. (setting priorities doesn't mean you get everything at a low price)
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Old 15-12-2014, 06:42   #18
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Look at the Ocean 30 tri on E-Bay.uk....
Less than $15k.. 6ft headroom.. folding ama's for cheap berthing.
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Old 15-12-2014, 07:39   #19
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Talking Re: Inexpensive Production/Custom Used Cat Recommendations

Quote:
Originally Posted by smj View Post
You just missed out on a really nice Crowther Spindrift 37' in excellent condition with an asking price of $69,000. There's also an older Apache 41 on sailboatlistings for $75,000.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Hey guys, firstly, thanks for all of the good input. I appreciate it. And as I said when I started the thread, I'm looking for new ideas more than anything right now.

On the Crowther, yep, I saw this boat, & from the posting, she looked to be in decent shape. Albeit with a spar that at least "looked" a bit vertically challenged. But yeah, given the budget which I quoted I know that I can't have everything.
Kinda' sad that they locked away all of his designs, for no further use. He designed a LOT of nice boats.

I'm not opposed to tri's either. At one point I had a 31' Searunner, & lived on her for a year & a half. But unless you get along REAL well, one of those just doesn't have enough space inside for several folks to live. Nor, realistically, the ability to carry proper cruising equipment & stores IMHO.
Interior room wise, think Catalina 25' at best.

Now some friends of mine bought a 37' Searunner, which I helped them deliver home, post-purchase. In addition to doing a lot of work on it for them.
I'd say that it would make a good cruiser, & had plenty of space, plus ability to carry both stores, AND toys. They spent a few years on it down in Mexico, & really enjoyed themselves.

The only real drawback to them being the central cockpit, particularly as there's no way to go from fwd. to aft, without going through the cockpit. Plus, with the center cockpit, they're far from ideal if you're cruising anywhere cold. As your living space is broken up so much.

One other option I suppose, would be to buy a set of hulls for a Woods "Eclipse", & build the rest of one of their designs myself. That or even self build the hulls too, albeit hiring out the fairing of the strip planking.
I know it'd be a grind (no pun intended) to build one, having done extensive rebuilds on several other boats, but it might meet the $ figure. And have the perk of me having a custom boat when I'm done.

Anyone have some firsthand experience with pneumatic (mini) longboard sanders? I say mini, as the one's I've seen are about 2' long, so perhaps not ideal for full size fairing jobs. But such is conjecture, thus my question.

Thanks again! And more ideas are welcome.
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Old 15-12-2014, 07:53   #20
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Re: Inexpensive Production/Custom Used Cat Recommendations

A 42' CSK in Mexico. You might be able to get it for $70K or less. Looks OK.

Catamaran 42'
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Old 15-12-2014, 09:07   #21
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Re: Inexpensive Production/Custom Used Cat Recommendations

You're a smart guy and I think resourceful. Given your stated criteria and that fact that you seem to have an open mind I would give serious consideration to building a Tiki 38.

Personally I am not thrilled with some of the design's styling, but I think a critical examination reveals that they are not at all poor performers. I believe the water line length to beam ratio approaches 12 : 1 on a double ended hull that looks pretty slippery and I think the poor man's square top rig makes a lot of sense besides being stupid simple.

Yes, they are V-shaped hulls with the associated wetted surface penalty, but in fact the construction of the lower hulls utilizes the tortured plywood technique to develop compound curvature to create additional volume so they are not that bad in this respect. Besides, all that wetted surface providing lateral resistance so it's not a total waste and the slight fin keels and skegs make drying out easy.

Yes, they are open bridge deck, but hey you can't have it all right? On the upside, they have great bridge deck clearance and lots of room to sprawl. If you build new you would have total control over materials and level of finish to suit your taste and budget.

Materials costs probably $50k with a build time of a couple thousand hours. For your budget and given record unemployment among young people, I would have to imagine you could hire some help to speed up the process. Depends on your employment situation but I think the more successful builders are people who can afford to devote significant chunks of time to the process.

I personally know someone who built one in North Carolina and sailed it safely to New Zealand. I think they're worth a look.
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Old 16-12-2014, 01:20   #22
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Re: Inexpensive Production/Custom Used Cat Recommendations

Delancey, thanks for the kind & complimentary words. As to the boat in question, I'm actually overdue to write to the designer to ask a few questions about it. As from a lot of angles, this model makes the most sense. But I want to ask them about sail area, as it seems fairly shy in that regard, particularly given it's displacement (even unloaded). AKA it's Bruce Number bites!
Plus I don't think that this model has the central fire pit option, & I'm curious as to how hard it'd be to pen one into the design.
- Fresh roast goat, peccary, or grilled fish, etc. rocks!

Other than that, yeah the lack of a full on bridgedeck cabin is a biggie, otherwise, deciding whether or not to build one would be a no brainer. And I'd be tempted to add a pair of external (to the hulls) daggerboards, or perhaps (enclosure housed) bilge keels/centerboards. As, honestly, unless I'm missing something, I can't see much in the way of negatives of such a mod'. And if they were unpopular when it came time to sell, out comes the grinder.
Comments?
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Old 16-12-2014, 02:23   #23
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Re: Inexpensive Production/Custom Used Cat Recommendations

I've been lusting after an Island Packet "Packet Cat 35" for a while: PACKET CAT 35 (ISLAND PACKET) sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

Don't know if it's anywhere within your parameters (believe the owners website has some brochures, plans, etc), haven't seen them discussed around here.
They're a pretty rare cat, only 41 built from 1993-98, don't know what they cost used today (think I found a new price somewhere in the info links, it was upper moderate back then, looked on Yachtworld a while ago and there were one or two listed at reasonable $).
Nice, roomy, comfortable, competent looking boats though.
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Old 16-12-2014, 04:17   #24
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Re: Inexpensive Production/Custom Used Cat Recommendations

Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED View Post
Hey guys, firstly, thanks for all of the good input. I appreciate it. And as I said when I started the thread, I'm looking for new ideas more than anything right now.

On the Crowther, yep, I saw this boat, & from the posting, she looked to be in decent shape. Albeit with a spar that at least "looked" a bit vertically challenged. But yeah, given the budget which I quoted I know that I can't have everything.
Kinda' sad that they locked away all of his designs, for no further use. He designed a LOT of nice boats.

I'm not opposed to tri's either. At one point I had a 31' Searunner, & lived on her for a year & a half. But unless you get along REAL well, one of those just doesn't have enough space inside for several folks to live. Nor, realistically, the ability to carry proper cruising equipment & stores IMHO.
Interior room wise, think Catalina 25' at best.

Now some friends of mine bought a 37' Searunner, which I helped them deliver home, post-purchase. In addition to doing a lot of work on it for them.
I'd say that it would make a good cruiser, & had plenty of space, plus ability to carry both stores, AND toys. They spent a few years on it down in Mexico, & really enjoyed themselves.

The only real drawback to them being the central cockpit, particularly as there's no way to go from fwd. to aft, without going through the cockpit. Plus, with the center cockpit, they're far from ideal if you're cruising anywhere cold. As your living space is broken up so much.

One other option I suppose, would be to buy a set of hulls for a Woods "Eclipse", & build the rest of one of their designs myself. That or even self build the hulls too, albeit hiring out the fairing of the strip planking.
I know it'd be a grind (no pun intended) to build one, having done extensive rebuilds on several other boats, but it might meet the $ figure. And have the perk of me having a custom boat when I'm done.

Anyone have some firsthand experience with pneumatic (mini) longboard sanders? I say mini, as the one's I've seen are about 2' long, so perhaps not ideal for full size fairing jobs. But such is conjecture, thus my question.

Thanks again! And more ideas are welcome.

We both looked at and sailed the Crowther. She's in excellent condition and sailed close to wind speed. No need for a taller rig!


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Old 16-12-2014, 07:44   #25
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Re: Inexpensive Production/Custom Used Cat Recommendations

I confess I have always been a huge Wharram fanboy. I'm totally taken by the sort of romantic/democratic spirit of the designers and the designs, which I interpret to be that a total hayseed country bumpkin with no skills and little money could read some book about sailing, get inspired, buy some plans, build a boat with readily available materials, and sail safely around the world while enjoying the multitude of benefits that a multihull has to offer is in my mind brilliant. And the best part is that it has been done, and more than once.

I think for someone like you a great side benefit of this simple low-tech approach to construction means that there is room to move in terms of weight by applying a more sophisticated build. For example, the design is such that probably 90% of the work can be done single handed through the use of a two-step construction of the lower half of the hull being built inverted, then righted before the upper half is built with bulkheads and hull planking joined with overlaps and butt-straps and a chine log that joins the upper and lower halves. The hull panels are backed up with stringers notched into the bulkheads which are epoxy filleted and glassed.

This is great because it means you never have to move more than a sheet of plywood around at a time but it is not maybe the most efficient. I think scarfing full size bulkheads and hull planking would be better and might consider cold molding a thicker hull and ditching the stringers, or better yet do what these guys did in Thailand-

Sailing catamaran TIKI 38'


Another example would be the cross beams, which as designed are fabricated I-beams which are pretty mammoth laminations that can't be very light, I would have to wonder if you couldn't do better with a box instead and pick up some more buoyancy in the inverted state at the same time. Also, I would be looking at WRC before something like DF or SYP for the decking. Lastly, if you did follow the designer's build I believe they call out for Douglas Fir plywood and a switch to Okuome would save some weight as well. So I think there are opportunities to make a difference when it comes to weight.

I'd be thinking hard about the strip plank example. It would be so easy on this boat. I'd also look at the math on the $$$. Nice ply ain't cheap, but Western Red Cedar is (comparatively) I think you could knock out a couple hulls pretty fast, possibly use the same plug for both? Maybe save enough $$$ to put a Tiki 46 with reach? Now you're talking.....
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Old 16-12-2014, 08:01   #26
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Re: Inexpensive Production/Custom Used Cat Recommendations

As far as rigs go, I agree it looks a little under-canvased. While image searching I did spot a sloop rig version which would get you a taller mast and for the life of me don't see any reason you couldn't run a sprit up the mast and fly a topsail in light wind but I haven't seen one. In the end though, I sort of like the schooner rig and think it suits the boat. If I recall correctly the spars are just like a 10" x .125" aluminum round tube, which is so awesome. The sleeve luff gets you nice flow around the mast and the gaff itself gets you your square top aspect, or at least close enough. All around I think it's a great rig. "The poor man's rotating wing sail"

As far as underwater goes, I could be wrong I think the V hull is acting sort of as a "lifting body" and the slight keel on the 38 really only represents a small portion of the area of lateral resistance. I believe some of the newer designs may have eliminated them? Not sure, but I think you can maybe take a hint from the overall design concept that what you are looking at is a little more of a utility vehicle than a luxury sedan so not sure about adding foils. I believe they go to weather well enough.

Here's a link to a pretty looking one out of Montauk on Long Island that was built for charter.

Building Mon Tiki | Sailing Montauk's Catamaran Mon Tiki: Charter Trips , Sunset Cruises, Private Parties and Corporate Events at the East End of Long Island
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Old 16-12-2014, 20:05   #27
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Re: Inexpensive Production/Custom Used Cat Recommendations

I could be mistaken but I seem to remember one of those photos being used to advertise prof built hulls of a Wharram design?



One thing about Wharrams is his concepts should be very well sorted out by now
tho I must admit the addition of a small cuddy on deck would make the design a lot more appealing to me personally
but thats probably against Wharrams acute philosophy

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Old 16-12-2014, 20:15   #28
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Re: Inexpensive Production/Custom Used Cat Recommendations

Boatsmith in Florida has molds for several wharrums and a Woods Eclipse 33

Worth a look.

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Old 17-12-2014, 01:57   #29
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Re: Inexpensive Production/Custom Used Cat Recommendations

downunder,
Thanks for the tip. I actually had a chat with Boatsmith, in FL, a few months ago. And I mentioned pondering that option, above.

As to deck pods on the 38' Wharram, it's designed with one. Or at least the 38's on their website seem to have'em. Were I to build one, I'd figure out a way to work in some sort of semi-permanent deck cabin. Albeit one abridged in size. But that way you could go from one hull to the other sans oilskins. And drive the thing, or hang out in/from a proper saloon.
- For if naught else, the main hatches in the hulls need proper turtles/garages. As even with them, cats without bridgedeck cabins can "catch" a lot of water via their hatches, even closed. And I ain't talking about rain either. See the below video.

Even John Shuttleworth's finally caved on that point, with his designs. He went from pram hoods on his early boats, even the first generation of the Tekron 35', to giving it essentially a bridgedeck cabin for each hull. With a semi-protected helming stations behind each one.
Plus re-working his 31' cat, so that it has a full bridgedeck cabin option - FINALLY. Though as has been said before, the Brits are different (and I'm half Scottish - 1st gen. Yeah, Mum came over on the boat, literally.)

Here's a quick (1:02min) video of Shuttleworth's 31' cats, which shows EXACTLY why I'm Vehement about some "For Real" on deck, & hatch protection on multi's.

Reading the story behind the boats in the video's worth it, they were built by a class of High School students, as part of a school project. Also on his site are some EXCELLENT articles, which has the math, explaining why 90-something% of production cruising cats are slugs.

Back to the Wharram boats, on the 38's, they're essentially "Dutch Gaff" rigs, which, yes, are the ancient forerunners of squarehead mains. Paul Bieker (as in the one who had a Big hand in the AC catamaran designs) has been an advocate of them for ages. And even designed a high performance day sailer for the Port Townsend (WA) Wooden Boat School, with said rig. It's a neat boat, & small enough that the students can see, day by day, almost, how a boat goes from; prints, to lofting, to build & launch. Plus they're Fun, & responsive to sail.

Anyway, I can't see any reason not to add several feet to the hoist on the masts of the 38'. Particularly as, math aside (in my other ref. to this design), the boats just look glued to the water in any kind of light air (as honestly, so do pretty much all of his designs). Adding 30lbs aloft ain't going to hurt the RM on those boats.

Also, I kind of got used to doing wind speed (or close) when it was blowing 5kts, in my old boat. Which IMHO, is how it should be.
I'm not a fan of motoring, unless it's the only way to escape swarms of bugs (knock on wood). That or make port prior to them running out of cold beer, & the kitchen closing - ergo, no delicious steaks, spuds, salads, & desert.

So yeah, needs be, I'll figure out how to add 20-30% more sail area to dang near anything. Without going to a taller spar.
I mean despite the foolish, racer v. cruiser animosity, cruisers surely don't complain about trickle down technology... like say Code 0's. A third more interior room for a given boat length, Or boats which sail well when it's light, & hobby horse 1/4th of what 25yr old designs do.

Oh, & thanks for the link to those builders. I've got another one somewhere too, about some guys who put a Wharram on a "diet" via the WRC approach. I can't help but wonder how many have been built in, perish the thought, foam core?
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Old 17-12-2014, 03:00   #30
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Re: Inexpensive Production/Custom Used Cat Recommendations

Sounds like you are on top of your project and will eventually work out which way to go. Windspeed is great.

Agree with semi permanent protection from weather and sun if you plan to head for the tropics. The fully open bridgedeck cats are not practical for liveaboard to me.

Would help if you can have hulls knocked up out of molds. I note Boatsmith is using foam sandwhich with both wharrams and Eclipse..

How would a stretched Eclipse hull be. Add 4ft making up to 37ft. I believe Richard Woods is very approachable and reasonable with hull plan cost or modifications.

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