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Old 11-04-2015, 02:09   #61
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Re: Inboard Or Outboard?

Concerning charging your liveaboard batteries, living on the hook with solar panels, simply doesnt work unless you have space for 10 solar panels of 85 Watt capacity each. In the tropics solar panels, contrary to the popular view, are not as efficient as in colder regions. The tropical higher ambient temperature for solar panels makes them less efficient. Wind generator, I removed mine, simply not effective when liveaboard.

On CF forums it is very clear few members worry very much about charging their batteries. But it is equally clear that we have more and more need of energy as the loads increase with our need for more liveaboard gadgets.


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Old 11-04-2015, 05:30   #62
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Re: Inboard Or Outboard?

Goosebumps, from reading your posts it's my guess that you have 0 experience with either outboards on multihulls or the use of solar to charge your batteries. I won't go through all the advantages and disadvantages of outboards as it seems this thread has covered all. Have you actually read this thread? We have owned 9 catamarans, 5 of which came equipped with diesels and 4 with outboards. On one of the diesel equipped cats we changed over to an outboard. Wow we haven't died from the gas tank exploding and we have also charged our batteries almost solely through solar panels, usually charged by early afternoon. Nothing wrong with diesels and also nothing wrong with outboards, it's your choice.
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Old 11-04-2015, 06:23   #63
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Re: Inboard Or Outboard?

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Goosebumps, from reading your posts it's my guess that you have 0 experience with either outboards on multihulls or the use of solar to charge your batteries. I won't go through all the advantages and disadvantages of outboards as it seems this thread has covered all. Have you actually read this thread? We have owned 9 catamarans, 5 of which came equipped with diesels and 4 with outboards. On one of the diesel equipped cats we changed over to an outboard. Wow we haven't died from the gas tank exploding and we have also charged our batteries almost solely through solar panels, usually charged by early afternoon. Nothing wrong with diesels and also nothing wrong with outboards, it's your choice.

Your personal opinion is valued at CF, for what its worth. Maybe others did find I make sone sense. I only owned 2 cats of which first one was Tiki 30 powered by Johnson 15Hp 4stroke, dinghy 8Hp Yamaha 2stroke. Second cat I still own with its inboard diesel marine engines. I don't have inferiority complex to have to stalk other CF members and scrutinize their posts to see if I can catch them out on something! I suppose the fact that I can list rhe advantages of inboards and disadvantages of putboards fir multihull powering doesn't suit those who are presently selling such xats on the CF commercial threads. Solar panels great, sufficient for present day liceaboard in the tropics, NO!


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Old 11-04-2015, 06:50   #64
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Re: Inboard Or Outboard?

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Your personal opinion is valued at CF, for what its worth. Maybe others did find I make sone sense. I only owned 2 cats of which first one was Tiki 30 powered by Johnson 15Hp 4stroke, dinghy 8Hp Yamaha 2stroke. Second cat I still own with its inboard diesel marine engines. I don't have inferiority complex to have to stalk other CF members and scrutinize their posts to see if I can catch them out on something! I suppose the fact that I can list rhe advantages of inboards and disadvantages of putboards fir multihull powering doesn't suit those who are presently selling such xats on the CF commercial threads. Solar panels great, sufficient for present day liceaboard in the tropics, NO!


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Can't say I've stalked you but I have probably scrutinized your posts for good reason. I can at least admit that I prefer outboards over diesels but I do think diesels are a decent choice for one that can accept the advantages and the disadvantages. And yes, there are plenty of cats sailing the world with outboards successfully.
Wouldn't the tropics be the best place to have solar? I'm sure there are more cruisers nowadays that are successfully living with solar in the tropics than without. I know we are.
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Old 11-04-2015, 08:05   #65
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Re: Inboard Or Outboard?

Gotta say anyone who thinks solar panels are not capable of providing all the power needed to run a boat in the tropics may need a reality check. Too many folks posting at CF who are doing it.

I had to laugh when goosebumps suggested 10 85 watt pannels. The most recent install I saw was 2 345 and can not recall anything less than a couple of 200 watt pannels. Three 345 pannels would be easier, cheaper, and smaller than 10 85 pannels and probably more efficient as well.

Tec guys would probably laugh in your face if you asked them to install 10 85 watt pannels.

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Old 11-04-2015, 08:18   #66
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Re: Inboard Or Outboard?

I don't claim to be solar panel tech so educate me. I haven't investigated recently what size solar panel now is commonly used.
Don't forget I liveaboard far from any marina, chandler and no-one close hy has to offer any help on that so,ar panel topic! Just want to specifically ask, is there any truth or not that hot ambient temperature is less efficient for solar power generating than colder environments? Anyone? I hope I didn't go off topic.


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Old 11-04-2015, 08:49   #67
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Re: Inboard Or Outboard?

There is a decrease in solar panel output above a certain temperature, but not to the extent that the output is unuseable. As with most things a well executed plan is needed. My pannels are on the arch with good ventilation below and even at midday in hot sun are dumping over 22 amps per hour in the house bank, and maybe losing 10% of the output they are capable of. I have no doubt it is possible to do a less efficient install and lose more power.

As pannels and controllers get better and cheaper and bigger things will only improve more. Currently the minimum size most tecs would suggest for a liveaboard is 2 200 watt pannels and 4 100 amp batteries. Lots of cats have plenty of space for pannels providing 1000 watts. I use flooded batteries and weight is a concern on cats but many cats are capable of carrying 1000 amps in the house bank. Newer battery technology can provide more useable power at less weight but at a greater cost.

China seems to be practicing predatory pricing in solar pannels making the cost stupid low. Flooded batteries are also providing great bang for the buck. Lots of good stuff on this in many CF threads.

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Old 11-04-2015, 09:48   #68
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Re: Inboard Or Outboard?

thanks, really helpfull, I wish to setup like that, so would you say that aales value of multihull is higher with such geeat solar setup? It would beat my earluer argument that inboards useful for charging but they still got to run and I still think with liad of high rated alternators better.


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Old 11-04-2015, 09:57   #69
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Re: Inboard Or Outboard?

Lots of threads about sales value of boats. The bottom line is not everyone has the same idea about what boats are worth. But a lot of folks think a good solar set up adds to the value of a boat.

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Old 11-04-2015, 10:20   #70
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Re: Inboard Or Outboard?

Solar is a pretty cheap and easy installation usually. Two boats exactly the same apart from solar, I'd value the one with solar at replacement cost so long as it's a pretty recent installation, maybe a bit less if it's more them a few years old. So maybe the boat with solar would be worth paying 2k-4k more for. Maybe not if your cruising plans are day sails and marinas. Anyway your unlikely to find 2 boats exactly the same apart from solar, but I would be adding that to my purchase price calculations, along with any other items I think are necessary, like safety gear, WM, decent anchor gear, sails etc
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Old 11-04-2015, 15:07   #71
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Re: Inboard Or Outboard?

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Originally Posted by Goosebumps View Post
It seems to me that a reality check is usefull here. Like always it is firemost important to determine what you will use your cat for, wgere, how?

Serious long range cruisers won't choose outboards to propel their cruising yacht. To carry more petrol than you need for your dinghy outboard is simply very irresponsible. I have a secure dedicated petrol (for dinghy outboard) locker that drains between the hulls st the stern of my cat. Wgere would I store more petrol. Outboards propelling the cat would consume much more than your dinghy outboard. Where on a small, under 36 foot cat would you store that extea petrol.

If that is not a serious enough argument against outboards to propel a multihull think of the battery charging. It is one of the most important issues for a long term long range, of the beaten track, far from popular, tourist infested , cruiser.
Cruisers spend lots of time on the hook out of marinas the marine diesel engine has to run regularly to keep it in good condition, the non-load running can harm the engine but with the lias of a few Hp because of high rated alternators resolves this.

The dragging of the inboard propellers is a non-issue amongst the cruisers. Foldi g propellers are a gimmick. To keep them free from marine growth is extremely difficult. They will stop folding ir unfolding with just a bit of marne growth, and we cannot anti-foul them.

Inboards can be located in very difficult to reach bilges under cabin berths. I would not go for multihull where you sleep on top of engine, where diesel smell cannot be eliminated, where engine noise, vibration affects you. On my 34foot Catalac inboards are in spacious stern lockers reached from the cockpit.

Cruisers know that working on outboards is challenging because of the fine mechanical design. If you service, change all filters, oil, use anti-freeze in your engine coolant, make sure your through bhull seacocks are in good condition and valve closes Inboard diesels basically will keep going if you give them clean water free diesel, simple baya filter will help there and discipline handling the fuel.

Hobbyhorsing of any multihull in heavy seas will affect your outboards. Some are designed to run even when submerged but we all kniw it will only be matter of time before damage occurs. The position of the outboard propeller has tobe in the ideal drive position to be efficient, fuel and power wise. Only efficient o flat seas. Once up and down movement starts in the waves imagine the poor efficiency. Inboard propellers, typically on saildrives mounted far from stern in front of the rudders, will remain efficient even in heavy seas. The flow of water from the propellers will make the rudders, steering, much more efficient to.

Autopilot on rudders used in combination with outboards simply dont wirk as smooth as they do with inboards.

Sure outboards will be best for the weekend cruiser because marine diesels have to run.
The trouble with your "reality check" is that it is based on pure opinion, not reality.

The reality is, many many cruising boats use outboard motors, and have done for many years.

I know people who circumnavigated on a cat with ONE Yamaha 9.9. Many more with twin outboards.

Carrying petrol isn't an issue, with a correctly designed system. The fact is, the vast majority of recreational boats are powered by petrol. Quite a lot of commercial boats too, come to that. May of these have very large fuel tanks. Yet disasters are rare, and almost exclusively limited to inboard installations.

Battery charging can be done by solar, wind, and a small portable genset. Any of these methods would make more sense than running a large propulsion engine for battery charging.

To say it can't be done simply denies facts. We've been running the entire boat almost exclusively on solar panels for the past 5 years. Only very occasionally (a couple of times per year) needing to supplement them with the genset.

I've owned diesel and outboard motors. Outboards are easier to work on. Full stop. MUCH easier.

The comment about autopilots is utterly ridiculous.
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Old 11-04-2015, 15:19   #72
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Re: Inboard Or Outboard?

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The comment about autopilots is utterly ridiculous.
I have to say that one got me as well. In the last few weeks I have done the same delivery trip twice, once with an outboard powered cat and once with inboard. Couldn't tell the difference when the autopilot was running.
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Old 11-04-2015, 15:22   #73
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Re: Inboard Or Outboard?

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Originally Posted by Goosebumps View Post
Concerning charging your liveaboard batteries, living on the hook with solar panels, simply doesnt work unless you have space for 10 solar panels of 85 Watt capacity each. In the tropics solar panels, contrary to the popular view, are not as efficient as in colder regions. The tropical higher ambient temperature for solar panels makes them less efficient. Wind generator, I removed mine, simply not effective when liveaboard.

On CF forums it is very clear few members worry very much about charging their batteries. But it is equally clear that we have more and more need of energy as the loads increase with our need for more liveaboard gadgets.


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Rubbish. For five years I never connected to shore power and ran my Fridge and freezer constantly and I mean, never turned them off other than for a half an hour every year to clean them etc. Spent months at anchor running TV and plotters and computers etc, all off two Solar Panels. Seriously, how about you educate your self before telling people who are actually living the experience that they are wrong.
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Old 11-04-2015, 17:46   #74
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Re: Inboard Or Outboard?

Gotta wonder what kinda refrigeration system Factor has that he can get by with that long between defrosting. I have an Engle in the cockpit and a Frigaboat below and am lucky to go a couple of months between defrosting.

YMMV

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Old 11-04-2015, 18:36   #75
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Re: Inboard Or Outboard?

Hehe I can imagine my fridge if I didn't defrost and clean it each month or two. It would end up looking like a big brown iceblock. I guess if I didn't have food in it and kept it on a low setting it might last a year between cleans..
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