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Old 09-04-2015, 11:52   #46
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Re: Inboard Or Outboard?

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Originally Posted by admiralslater View Post
We have a pdq 36 with twin yamahas 9.9. It should be noted that they are high thrust engines with I beleive 3 to 1 reduction and a large prop. I have motored in a 5 foot short chop at speed that was not comfortable ie to fast. The location of the engines about 10 feet forward of the transoms. We have almost never had cavitation. We also have in flat water made 5 knots into 35 knot winds . I would be willing to bet that a 9.9 would pull a 20 hp backwards in a tug of war.
I have seen twin yamahas on a 50 footer ,that might be pushing at bit ,but it was a real sailors boat.
By the way I also have an Outremer 45 with 3gm30s. It is hard to compare because of the weight diference. The outboards seem to have more thrust in reverse.
The 36 was originally designed for outboards and I still see them operating in the Caribbean.
Every boat design is different

Thanks for the info.

I'm liking the PDQ more and more.
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Old 09-04-2015, 14:10   #47
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Re: Inboard Or Outboard?

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Thanks for the info.

I'm liking the PDQ more and more.
One just hit the market in Grenada for an astonishing $129k.
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Old 09-04-2015, 16:10   #48
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Re: Inboard Or Outboard?

Or this one in Florida for 125k. Really good shape and the least expensive on the market!
http://www.pdqforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2924
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Old 10-04-2015, 06:07   #49
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Re: Inboard Or Outboard?

i vote for outboards any time. Ex owner of seawind 1000.

if 40 ft condomaran had them that would be game changer and would buy just because of that.

Sooo much easier to maintain !!!

And they work relatively well and there is NO drag.
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Old 10-04-2015, 08:25   #50
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Re: Inboard Or Outboard?

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What are the pros and cons when comparing inboards and outboards, and now I'm talking about boats that are designed for outboards, not converted. Like seawind.

Pros for outboards:
- cheaper
- easier to maintenance
- lighter
- can be lifted from water when sailing

Cons:
- most use gas instead of diesel
- uses more fuel than inboards
I wouldn't bet on outboards being cheaper than diesels or being easier to maintain. Parts are packed in pretty tight on an outboard and there are lots of proprietary parts. The lower unit of an outboard needs maintenance and this can't be done in the water.

The lifespan of a diesel is measured in thousands of hours. The lifespan of an outboard is measured in hundreds of hours.

Diesels have more torque and better performance at low RPM and low speeds.

But, chose the boat you like, then take it for a sea trial. If it meets your needs, that's the boat for you, regardless of power.
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Old 10-04-2015, 08:55   #51
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Re: Inboard Or Outboard?

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I wouldn't bet on outboards being cheaper than diesels or being easier to maintain. Parts are packed in pretty tight on an outboard and there are lots of proprietary parts. The lower unit of an outboard needs maintenance and this can't be done in the water.

The lifespan of a diesel is measured in thousands of hours. The lifespan of an outboard is measured in hundreds of hours.

Diesels have more torque and better performance at low RPM and low speeds.

But, chose the boat you like, then take it for a sea trial. If it meets your needs, that's the boat for you, regardless of power.
Yes, outboard parts are often propriatary just like diesel parts are. Try bolting a yanmar valve cover on a perkins diesel and tell me how well it works.

The beauty of a well designed outboard setup is you can work on them while they are in the water. It's realtively simple to hook a line to the boom and lift it into the cockpit. A couple times, I've changed the lower unit lube by backing the dingy under the motor and with a large trash bag drained and refilled it. With the ability to lift the motor clear of the water, there is no drag while sailing and corrosion is a non-issue. Beats the heck out of dealing with snake oil salesmen telling you the miricle substance will keep oysters from growing on your prop.

If you do need professional help, you will be hardpressed to find a location where someone doesn't know outboards. On the other hand, there are many places without diesel powered boats once you get away from popular areas.

I'm around 900hrs with a motor that runs like new with nothing but fluid and filter changes. I see no reason to expect less than another couple thousand hours and when that time comes, I can get a second brand new drivetrain and still be well below the cost of a new diesel drivetrain. I used to have a 40yr old evenrude that still ran like new. Outboards don't wear out after a few hundred hours, thats a complete falsehood.

I've found most marine engines (diesels included) die from abuse and neglect not thru wearing out.

Torque can be addressed by using a high thrust lower unit and/or a low pitch prop to let the engine run at the speed it prefers. We went from 40hp to 25 but switched to a low pitch prop and have more thrust around the dock with less HP. Plus we can steer the outboard in forward and reverse (a real downside for single inboard boats)

I bet on it and so far am winning by a large margin. Complete new drivetrain for $5k and they did the install for free. A 25hp diesel is more than that sitting in the crate. Add in removal of the old and installation of the new. Also, you have a transmission, propshaft and other ancilliary needs and the diesel can run several times the price.

With modern solar systems to keep your batteries up, diesel engines are not nearly as valuable as they used to be.
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Old 10-04-2015, 09:13   #52
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Re: Inboard Or Outboard?

An old friend of mine had charter boats than had twin Hondas on them. He would replace them every 3500 hrs whether they needed it or not, and they never needed it as he had no failures.
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Old 10-04-2015, 14:46   #53
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Re: Inboard Or Outboard?

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Originally Posted by rwidman View Post
I wouldn't bet on outboards being cheaper than diesels or being easier to maintain. Parts are packed in pretty tight on an outboard and there are lots of proprietary parts. The lower unit of an outboard needs maintenance and this can't be done in the water.

The lifespan of a diesel is measured in thousands of hours. The lifespan of an outboard is measured in hundreds of hours.

Diesels have more torque and better performance at low RPM and low speeds.

But, chose the boat you like, then take it for a sea trial. If it meets your needs, that's the boat for you, regardless of power.
I regularly change the oil in my gearcases without having to slip the boat.

Other routine maintenance has been easy. I had a problem once with water getting into a fuel tank breather. Eventually it filled the glass separator bowl in the fuel filter, and made it's way to the engine. I could drain the filter bowl, the float bowl and have the engine running again in under 5 minutes. While underway.

I doubt it would be so easy with a diesel.

A sistership of ours has had to replace both gearboxes on their diesel engines, due to heat exchanger failures. Getting that job done cost almost as much as an entire new outboard would. Their engines have less hours on them than ours do.

Some folding PROPELLORS cost nearly as much as an entire new outboard.

And they still produce more drag under sail.

The lifespan of a lot of outboards is measured in hundreds of hours, because they are on trailer boats, and really see little use.

In high use applications they do many more hours. For instance, charter houseboat operators regularly see several thousands of hours from their outboards.
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Old 10-04-2015, 14:54   #54
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Re: Inboard Or Outboard?

excellent thread. I will change to outboards if/when time comes. Like bahia conversion. Could never understood why seawind installed diesels on 40 ft model as they know well advantages of outboards.

Why pushing diesels on cats is beyond my comprehension.

Outboards run well in choppy seas and run for MANY, MANY hours.
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Old 10-04-2015, 15:43   #55
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Re: Inboard Or Outboard?

In a Lagoon 400, I wouldn't. As a percentage of the overall weight, the benefit from fitting outboards would be small. Fuel tanks would probably need to be relocated, etc etc.


The cost of the conversion would probably be considerably more than the cost of the replacement diesels.
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Old 10-04-2015, 18:04   #56
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Re: Inboard Or Outboard?

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
In a Lagoon 400, I wouldn't. As a percentage of the overall weight, the benefit from fitting outboards would be small. Fuel tanks would probably need to be relocated, etc etc.


The cost of the conversion would probably be considerably more than the cost of the replacement diesels.
engine room is large and fitting tank there should not be difficult. Replacing 2x diesels will be 70k in sydney. I do not think outboard installation anything close to that.

It is not the weight that bothers. But :

water in saildrive, when you have to run and haul out etc $$$$$
outside seals give up and boat sinks. There are 2 seals, but again you have emergency. $$$$$$$
saildrive leg & propeller antifoul $$$$$$
no need for folding props $$$$$$
feeling like a hostage

& more
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Old 10-04-2015, 22:13   #57
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Re: Inboard Or Outboard?

I have a small motorboat with 60hp Yamaha 2-stroke from early 80's and I doubt that you could get more reliable engine.

Haven't worked with marine diesel but would think that maintenance + costs is astronomical compared to this kind of engine.

And wouldn't say that this outboard is hard to maintenance compared to diesel.


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Old 11-04-2015, 00:46   #58
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Re: Inboard Or Outboard?

It seems to me that a reality check is usefull here. Like always it is firemost important to determine what you will use your cat for, wgere, how?

Serious long range cruisers won't choose outboards to propel their cruising yacht. To carry more petrol than you need for your dinghy outboard is simply very irresponsible. I have a secure dedicated petrol (for dinghy outboard) locker that drains between the hulls st the stern of my cat. Wgere would I store more petrol. Outboards propelling the cat would consume much more than your dinghy outboard. Where on a small, under 36 foot cat would you store that extea petrol.

If that is not a serious enough argument against outboards to propel a multihull think of the battery charging. It is one of the most important issues for a long term long range, of the beaten track, far from popular, tourist infested , cruiser.
Cruisers spend lots of time on the hook out of marinas the marine diesel engine has to run regularly to keep it in good condition, the non-load running can harm the engine but with the lias of a few Hp because of high rated alternators resolves this.

The dragging of the inboard propellers is a non-issue amongst the cruisers. Foldi g propellers are a gimmick. To keep them free from marine growth is extremely difficult. They will stop folding ir unfolding with just a bit of marne growth, and we cannot anti-foul them.

Inboards can be located in very difficult to reach bilges under cabin berths. I would not go for multihull where you sleep on top of engine, where diesel smell cannot be eliminated, where engine noise, vibration affects you. On my 34foot Catalac inboards are in spacious stern lockers reached from the cockpit.

Cruisers know that working on outboards is challenging because of the fine mechanical design. If you service, change all filters, oil, use anti-freeze in your engine coolant, make sure your through bhull seacocks are in good condition and valve closes Inboard diesels basically will keep going if you give them clean water free diesel, simple baya filter will help there and discipline handling the fuel.

Hobbyhorsing of any multihull in heavy seas will affect your outboards. Some are designed to run even when submerged but we all kniw it will only be matter of time before damage occurs. The position of the outboard propeller has tobe in the ideal drive position to be efficient, fuel and power wise. Only efficient o flat seas. Once up and down movement starts in the waves imagine the poor efficiency. Inboard propellers, typically on saildrives mounted far from stern in front of the rudders, will remain efficient even in heavy seas. The flow of water from the propellers will make the rudders, steering, much more efficient to.

Autopilot on rudders used in combination with outboards simply dont wirk as smooth as they do with inboards.

Sure outboards will be best for the weekend cruiser because marine diesels have to run.
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Old 11-04-2015, 01:05   #59
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Re: Inboard Or Outboard?

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Originally Posted by arsenelupiga View Post
engine room is large and fitting tank there should not be difficult. Replacing 2x diesels will be 70k in sydney. I do not think outboard installation anything close to that.

It is not the weight that bothers. But :

water in saildrive, when you have to run and haul out etc $$$$$
outside seals give up and boat sinks. There are 2 seals, but again you have emergency. $$$$$$$
saildrive leg & propeller antifoul $$$$$$
no need for folding props $$$$$$
feeling like a hostage

& more
Really to be alarmist about saildrives doesnt impress cruisers who are using them. Lets get statistics on saildrive problems. I was also wary concerning the seals and the rusk of them leaking. I have not found any cruiser, even those with seals more than the 7 years they supposed to last, to have had leak problems. Water in the saildrives, service them when you can, change oil, seals. Certainly not an argument against marine inboards. Make sure that your engine mountings are properly tightened, do thus regularly, becayse the only event that could affect your seals is a diesel engine dancing around in the bilge because it has come of the mountings. Fouled propeller could cause sudden engine breaking free from poorly tightened mounting bolts.
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Old 11-04-2015, 01:34   #60
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Re: Inboard Or Outboard?

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This subject has been beat to death, but one more advantage of the outboard is there are two less holes in the boat below the waterline. We have gone from a Seawind 1000 with twin Yamaha 9.9's to a PDQ with the same, couldn't be happier. I have no problems with Diesel engines but really dislike saildrives, they make little sense to me. But I think it's true that you pick the boat you want and live with the engine setup it comes with.

Keep saying that a topic is beat to death when obviously lots of us are still undecided. Maybe give us your conclusions in a list before burying us.


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