Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 31-12-2010, 16:11   #1
Registered User
 
mdsilvers's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2009
Boat: Antares 44i - Field Trip
Posts: 93
In-Mast Furling on Cats - Pros & Cons . . .

Happy New Year!!

I thought I would start a post on pros and cons of in-mast furling. I recently went through the analysis myself for my own boat, and came to the conclusion, that for us – traditional was the best way to go. This is clearly a personal decision based on a number of factors that vary from person to person.

I have started to see this become and option on cats – Antares and Discovery to name a couple.

I would be interested in getting the collective group in the forum to weigh in based on your thinking about in-mast furling on cats….should be interesting.

Here are my thoughts:

In-Mast Furling Pros:

• Easy to reef, push a button
• May use the main more because easier to deploy
• Potentially less to fix with cars, extra lines, etc than traditional rig

In-Mast Furling Cons:

• Performance impact on a cat due to:
- Sail shape, less roach, and in some cases no roach
- Vertical battens (full, partial, none) vs. horizontal
- Less overall mainsail area for same rig height (@ 20%)
- Pointing to the wind is affected due to sail shape/size
- Light winds would favor a traditional rig due to sail area/shape
- When reefing, sail shape changes
• Potential to jam
- More stable now than in the past, with battens jamming could happen
• Sail weight is kept aloft when fully retracted, probably not the best idea on a cat

If performance is not a concern, furling may be the way to go. Push a button and go.

For me, performance, especially in light winds & pointing, ease to quickly drop the main made it a no brainer.

Anyone else want to weigh in on in-mast furling mains on cats…and frankly if they will catch on with Lagoon, FP and the other mainstream manufacturers?
__________________

__________________
mdsilvers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-12-2010, 16:42   #2
Moderator Emeritus
 
Pblais's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Hayes, VA
Boat: Gozzard 36
Posts: 8,700
Images: 15
Send a message via Skype™ to Pblais
Push of a button requires a power winch. It's not going to save you if you didn't push it early. Ease of reefing - huge advantage. Sail shape is partially mitigated by a sail made for the purpose. Performance is for racing not cruising. Cruising is a boat loaded too heavy to race. Ease of handling wins most times that count.

All that said 2 reef points carries you past all the hard stuff. A third reef point means you should not have been there in the first place but you ended up there.

The whole concept was similar to roller furling on head sails as being unreliable. It was not true and took about 10 years to be proven. Reefing early is maybe more important on a cat but only to some extent. Not reefing early enough is not debatable on any boat.

For my money not being there beats them all. In mast adds to the cost no doubt (deal with it), but I've not seen anything that says it isn't a good idea. 10 years ago it wasn't that popular. If performance is the main factor I don't see it. If cruising is the game then you need to know when to reef more than how you do it. Making it easier is no disadvantage and maybe the very best case in favor. If you were stuck reefing too late a power winch with in mast furling may not fill the gap. It is at the end of the day about sail handling more than anything else. You did or you didn't get the job done.

In light wind the battens would be better but you are out there having fun - it could be worse. In heavy weather performance is not the worry on the top ten list.
__________________

__________________
Paul Blais
s/v Bright Eyes Gozzard 36
37 15.7 N 76 28.9 W
Pblais is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-12-2010, 16:50   #3
Writing Full-Time Since 2014
 
thinwater's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Deale, MD
Boat: PDQ Altair, 32/34
Posts: 4,348
* Most cats are balanced for a large roach sail. Typically no fixed backstay (not always).
* Reefing a cat--less heeling and rolling--is generally easy.
* Generally lazy jacks and a big hard top to work from.

I wouldn't do it, not for a free mainsail.
__________________
Gear Testing--Engineering--Sailing

Writing full-time since 2014.
Bookstore:http://sail-delmarva.blogspot.com/20...ook-store.html
thinwater is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-12-2010, 17:10   #4
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Bayfield, Lake Superior, WI
Boat: C&C 34
Posts: 358
Images: 1
They jam

Part of the joy of a Cat is the performance. Going "roach-free" gives you an underpowered machine with the potential for jamming at the worst possible time. That's two strikes vs. the "ease" of deployment. Use the powered winch (or the windlass) to haul the main up and go.
__________________
Never, ever, ever take a sleeping pill and a laxative at the same time.
sailstoo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-12-2010, 17:19   #5
Registered User
 
Aussiesuede's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC & Seattle, WA
Posts: 641
As far as "push button ease of sail handling systems", I prefer "in boom" as opposed to "in mast." You don't have to give up a fully battened main with an in boom system, and a jam during reefing can be more easily overcome (ie, you can release a halyard and gravity is still your friend) than with an in mast system. And if you had a jam, where would you rather be? Up the mast, or tending the boom?
__________________
I'm On point, On task, On message, and Off drugs. A Streetwise Smart Bomb, Out of rehab and In denial. Over the Top, On the edge, Under the Radar, and In Control. Behind the 8 ball, Ahead of the Curve and I've got a Love Child who sends me Hate mail. - (George Carlin)
Aussiesuede is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-12-2010, 17:27   #6
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,049
Images: 12
On a cat, losing sail area not only effects performance in terms of speed, it effects performance in terms of drive. A lot of sail area is contained in the roach of most catamaran mainsails, and most catamarans are designed to have that sail area. Cats are typically light and can be stopped dead in head seas when they don't have sufficient driving power, where heavier monos can punch through using momentum. So while loss of top speed is not a worry to a cruiser, loss of power is.

Mark
__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-12-2010, 17:47   #7
Moderator
 
Pete7's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Solent, England
Boat: Moody 31
Posts: 8,573
Images: 14
One more downside is I think you really want the rig to be designed for in mast from the start rather than one of those add on kits.

That aside we love our in mast reefing albeit on a mono.

Pete
__________________
Pete7 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 31-12-2010, 17:55   #8
Registered User
 
Catalysis's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: California
Boat: St Francis 50
Posts: 275
MDSilvers:

I was considering an in-boom roller furling system for my Antares. Had great success with one on my 48 foot monohull all electric, reliable and with ability to retain battens.

I suspect that a high roach could be accommodated also.

However, we are happy with the "Main Tamer" and lazy jacks that are standard on the 44i so we'll likely not bother to change.

From a personal standpoint I'm not a fan of in mast furling don't want the problem of a stuck main in worsening weather.

I'm sure you'll receive lots of opinions on this question.


Happy New Year

Paul
__________________
Catalysis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-12-2010, 18:31   #9
Registered User
 
Cotemar's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Boat: FP, Helia 44 Evo
Posts: 5,717
Cruisers in Mast Furling

Mdsilvers,

Just between you an me. I really loved in mast furling on my Catalina 380.
Main never stuck, as some say. It always worked great and would get another one in a heart beat.
Until you you have had one of these. It's just a no brainer.

In-Mast Furling Pros:

• Easy to reef, Pull in, pull out manually with very little effort in seconds
• Use the main more because it's easier to deploy and retract, again in seconds
• Would not hesitate to put the main out to test the wind
• In seconds it's away and you are done. No going on the roof top and zipping the Lazy bag
• Potentially less to fix with cars, extra lines, etc than traditional rig

For any cruisers, in Mast Furling is the ultimate sail to have.

Oh where was I, Mdsilvers we did not have this conversation.

----- mark
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Antares.jpg
Views:	187
Size:	87.5 KB
ID:	22416  
__________________
Cotemar is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 31-12-2010, 19:44   #10
Registered User
 
simonmd's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sant Carles, S Spain
Boat: 30ft Catalac 900 "Rubessa"
Posts: 876
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdsilvers View Post
• Potential to jam
I think this is becomming an old wives tale. The's been much discussion in the monohulls section and while it's accepted it is possible, it very rarely happens and when it does, is usualy easy to sort out. It always seems that the pros outweigh the cons, from what i've read on here anyway.
Quote:
• Sail weight is kept aloft when fully retracted, probably not the best idea on a cat
Erm, if my knowledge of physics is anything to go by, surely a cat would be more stable than a monohull and so the reverse would be true.
__________________
Previous owner of a 1994 Catalac 900, now sadly SOLD
simonmd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-12-2010, 20:54   #11
Registered User
 
mdsilvers's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2009
Boat: Antares 44i - Field Trip
Posts: 93
Lots of opinions. All good. So here is a question that i have. Why have other production cats not gone with in mast furling? Cost? I would think that charter companies would be all over this.
__________________
Mark

http://svfieldtrip.blogspot.com
mdsilvers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-12-2010, 20:58   #12
Registered User
 
mdsilvers's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2009
Boat: Antares 44i - Field Trip
Posts: 93
Simonmd the issue with cats is they done heel very far before they literally tip over. Laws of physics. That is why having additional weight aloft may not be a great idea. On a mono not as big of an issue. They tend to bounce back if knocked down. Cats not so much.
__________________
Mark

http://svfieldtrip.blogspot.com
mdsilvers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-12-2010, 22:31   #13
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
On a cat, losing sail area not only effects performance in terms of speed, it effects performance in terms of drive. A lot of sail area is contained in the roach of most catamaran mainsails, and most catamarans are designed to have that sail area. Cats are typically light and can be stopped dead in head seas when they don't have sufficient driving power, where heavier monos can punch through using momentum. So while loss of top speed is not a worry to a cruiser, loss of power is.

Mark
From our recent transit down Australia's east coast, it appears as though fewer and fewer sailing cats are actually sailing these days. Possibly due to the effort involved in hoisting and striking sails on the latest breed of bigger and bigger cruising cats.
Anything that makes sail handling easier has got to increase sailing performance,for the majority that find it to difficult to hoist sail, even if a less efficient rig is the outcome.

Regards
__________________
cat skin hat
catty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-12-2010, 22:45   #14
Registered User
 
simonmd's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sant Carles, S Spain
Boat: 30ft Catalac 900 "Rubessa"
Posts: 876
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdsilvers View Post
Simonmd the issue with cats is they done heel very far before they literally tip over. Laws of physics. That is why having additional weight aloft may not be a great idea. On a mono not as big of an issue. They tend to bounce back if knocked down. Cats not so much.
Yes I understand that but no Cat is going to be that unstable with the sail in mast. When a cat has it's sails out, either furling or conventional, the sail weight aloft is the same, yet in normal condition they don't fall over then do they? (before people start screaming about cat's capsizing, we're talking about normal conditions with a skipper who knows what he's doing...)

My point is, why suggest that it's in any way worse to have a heavier mast just because it's a cat' specifically? Surely the effect would be comparible in a monohull and remember, we're talking about cruising cat's here, not those tricky racing types.

Contrary to what some people would make you believe, cruising cats are VERY stable. The only time you'd ever tip one over would be with full sail out in extreem conditions. Therefore, it's irrelavent whether its in mast or a conventional stacking sail.
__________________
Previous owner of a 1994 Catalac 900, now sadly SOLD
simonmd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2011, 00:27   #15
Registered User
 
Jeannius's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Worcester U.K.
Boat: Privilege 435 Now Sold
Posts: 840
Quote:
Contrary to what some people would make you believe, cruising cats are VERY stable. The only time you'd ever tip one over would be with full sail out in extreem conditions. Therefore, it's irrelavent whether its in mast or a conventional stacking sail.
Full sail out in extreme conditions happens more often than you'd expect. I've gone from a nice sail in 25 knots to survival mode in 50 knots within a matter of minutes! In-mast furling jams are also very common. I can quote two from my recent knowledge...

We are sailing around the world as part of an organised rally. On the leg from Reunion to South Africa a recent model, well maintained Jeanneau monohull had the in mast furler jam. They got about two metres rolled away then couldn't get it in or out. This is not a part of the world you want to be in with a sail you can't put away. They were extremely lucky that they made it to port a couple of days later, just before severe gale force winds arrived.

On a leg around South Africa an Amel mono had their electric in-mast furler break. Then the manual override system wouldn't work. Again they were stuck with way too much sail out.

Both of the above got away with it as conditions didn't get too bad before they made landfall. If it had happened to a cat and conditions worsened before they made land, I believe they would have gone over.

Personally I wouldn't go out of the harbour on a cat with in mast furling. I have a conventional stack-pack, all lines led back to the cockpit and to electric winches. That makes it just as convenient as in-mast without the dangers. Oh and I have fitted a downhaul as well. That main is coming down when I want it to, on any point of sail unless multiple failures occur.
__________________

__________________
Mike

http://sailingjeannius.blogspot.com
Jeannius is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
furling, mast

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Pros and Cons of a Saildrive? Being There Monohull Sailboats 9 10-10-2016 01:57
Skookum 53 Pros and Cons FatBear Monohull Sailboats 0 21-08-2010 20:29
Digital Radar Pros and Cons? GeoPowers Marine Electronics 21 15-05-2009 15:11
Pros & Cons of financing?? Ditch Leroi Dollars & Cents 20 28-03-2009 20:17
Pros and cons of an aluminum cat sandy daugherty Multihull Sailboats 9 05-02-2009 05:27



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:58.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.