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Old 14-10-2010, 03:58   #211
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Which cat market is that Dragon Lady? We tend to agree with the direction of your thinking, viz. the currency position looks attractive -- Even if it improves somewhat in the short term, it seems a good chance this whole period will be later viewed as an attractive opportunity to import a vessel to Australia -- and there are still some markets with weak vendors. We see the currency situation as 'ripe for the picking'...and thus the real issue becomes...how's the supply of weak vendors holding up?

Hence we're curio

us which cat market you're watching. We're looking for a cruising cat in the 11-14m range, ideally <5yrs old...and you? We think there are still weak vendors out there for us, but not as many as say 6 months ago.
I'm looking at 11 to 13m Fountaine Pajots <12 years old, most on the market are overpriced but the ones on the money appear to be selling.
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Old 14-10-2010, 08:01   #212
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I'm looking at 11 to 13m Fountaine Pajots <12 years old, most on the market are overpriced but the ones on the money appear to be selling.
Hi Dragon lady
Did you see this one?
no broker.
42 venecia
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Old 14-10-2010, 16:29   #213
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Some interesting observations there Tuskie, thanks. We might chirp in a bit here as well, given that we have been effectively buyers looking at cruising cats into Australia for the past 3 years now...

Whilst what Tuskie says about the costs of delivering a vessel to Australia are right, the concern about doubling the price of a used vessel may miss the mark a bit. For a start, the delivery costs will very likely represent a lot less than the vessel costs, assuming a vessel of good cruising fitout and reasonably modern vintage...and of course the duty+GST will diminish as the cost of the vessel diminishes. So it seems to us that the much sharper reduction in the values of used vessel overseas in fact is still very much an opportunity for an Aussie buyer, irrespective of then adding the dleivery costs.

As regards Tuskie's strategy for reducing the Duty+GST, we would urge at least that buyers following that path be prepared for the startegy to fail. Aussie Customs are entitled to form their own view of a vessel's value, irrespective of the owner's apparent paperwork. We are told, for example, that Customs may ask for the vessel's insurance documents in assessing its value...or they may simply form their own view of the value, including its value landed in Australia. There is also a risk in Tuskie's strategy (or in any strategy that seeks to be clever with government agents) that, if discovered, the strategy may in fact 'backfire' with the agents then actively working to drive up the vessel's value, armed as always in such situations with the law's assumption that the agent (not the owner) is right.
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Old 14-10-2010, 18:19   #214
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As regards Tuskie's strategy for reducing the Duty+GST, we would urge at least that buyers following that path be prepared for the startegy to fail. Aussie Customs are entitled to form their own view of a vessel's value, irrespective of the owner's apparent paperwork.
Definitely. Australian Customs are a law undo themselves. I won't go this path, although many yachties have.

My point remains that the high cost of shipping to Australia make it less attractive to import an old boat IMHO. A newer (< 5 yo) secondhand boat purchased overseas at a keen price is currently a viable prospect. The difficulty of survey and inspection on the other side of the world however, make it probable that some expensive wild goose chases occur.

Buying a new boat ex-factory make the product being purchased more reliable and consistant: you know what you'll get. Even if the original purchase documents are presented to Customs at arrival in Australia without any cute schemes, the boat is still in a used condition, the cost of shipping should be from it's last port of call and the original purchase price (new) is still quite low. So GST and duty should be about the same as a secondhand import, and the total cost way lower than a similiar vessel on the Australian market.
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Old 14-10-2010, 18:33   #215
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....Aussie Customs are entitled to form their own view of a vessel's value, irrespective of the owner's apparent paperwork. We are told, for example, that Customs may ask for the vessel's insurance documents in assessing its value...or they may simply form their own view of the value, including its value landed in Australia. There is also a risk in Tuskie's strategy (or in any strategy that seeks to be clever with government agents) that, if discovered, the strategy may in fact 'backfire' with the agents then actively working to drive up the vessel's value, armed as always in such situations with the law's assumption that the agent (not the owner) is right.
Hi D&D
This is the bit I don't get. Assuming that the purchase price overseas may be say 25-40% less than the potential sale value in the australian market, how could Customs form any other view that the documented overseas purchase price does not represent market value over here and seek a valuation? Even if one is trying not to be clever.
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Old 14-10-2010, 19:09   #216
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the boat is still in a used condition, the cost of shipping should be from it's last port of call and the original purchase price (new) is still quite low. So GST and duty should be about the same as a secondhand import
We begin by noting we're no customs experts! That said, we understand that Customs will basically ignore the 'used' status of a vessel that was purchased new and then sailed fairly continuously on its way to Australia, even where both the time and (obviously!) the distance was great. Again, we also understand Customs may (and probably will) enquire regarding the vessel's insured value. Then finally, we also understand that the total delivery costs (including fuel, delivery fees, food...everything) from the point of purchase to the point of landing in Australia will be added to the purchase price of the vessel for purposes of calculating the 'value' to be used for Duty+GST.

All of which leads us to the view that Duty+GST on a vessel purchased new and then delivered (or sailed by its owners) fairly directly to Australia (even if the voyage takes a year or more) will be not that much (if any) less than on a new vessel ordered here...and certainly more than on a second-hand vessel.

One can't help but feel that Customs may 'cut some slack' in valuing a vessel where the owners spent years in their travels heading back to Australia, but the above is what we understand to be the official position.
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Old 14-10-2010, 20:46   #217
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Hi Dragon lady
Did you see this one?
no broker.
42 venecia
Yes thanks, it looks nice but I'm after something under 40 ft and under $200K.
There were 7 boats on my list as three have sold I was down to 4 but I have just found another two so that makes 6.
Yes most of them are ex charter but thats fine with me.
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Old 14-10-2010, 21:12   #218
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Then finally, we also understand that the total delivery costs (including fuel, delivery fees, food...everything) from the point of purchase to the point of landing in Australia will be added to the purchase price of the vessel for purposes of calculating the 'value' to be used for Duty+GST.
This was not the experience of a number of posts earlier in this thread.
Cost of delivery was accepted as the cost from the last port of call. New Caledonia I think... This was not from armchair opinions either, but actual trips.

I'd be interersted to know how they'd value a really old boat with no similar comparisons here. I'm thinking heavy displacement cruiser like a Vagabond 47 or Formosa 51. There'd be a strong case for argueing there is no ready market here, thus lowering the value further.
Surely it would be easier for them to just take the purchase price paid?
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Old 14-10-2010, 21:19   #219
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Hi D&D
This is the bit I don't get. Assuming that the purchase price overseas may be say 25-40% less than the potential sale value in the australian market, how could Customs form any other view that the documented overseas purchase price does not represent market value over here and seek a valuation? Even if one is trying not to be clever.
Yes, it does seem a bit of a conundrum.

To the extent that the difference in 'value' between an overseas vessel and the same vessel in Australia represents the taxes involved in landing a vessel here, clearly Customs cannot (and, we are assured, would not) seek to impose Duty/GST on Duty/GST. Beyond that, however, it becomes real fuzzy...and, in our view anyway, where it becomes especially important to NOT attempt anything 'clever'.

In our view the weakest link from the importer's perspective is the insured value. It would be reasonable to insure the vessel for its (presumably higher) value here in Australia.

Our view (instinct only now) is that, provided you are in every other respect perfectly straight with Customs, then they will follow what you paid for the vessel, rather than pursue (in your insurance papers or elsewhere) some higher figure of what the vessel may be worth here.
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Old 14-10-2010, 21:29   #220
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Cost of delivery was accepted as the cost from the last port of call. New Caledonia I think... This was not from armchair opinions either, but actual trips.
Without going back through this thread, we are just delighted to hear that! We are also, however, aware of other actual experiences otherwise. If you think about it, the whole concept of including the delivery costs as part of the vessel's value seems too easily circumvented by the last port of call approach...and we all know how government agencies hate seeing their rules (and especially their revenue) being easily by-passed!

Perhaps there may be a distinction based on the vessel's age?

As we just posted, however, we suspect a lot comes down to the individual agent's assessment of the individual importer's good faith. If the agent feels you are trying to avoid their rules, look out...but if they feel you're pretty much 'on the level' with them, they may take a more relaxed approach. It seems incredibly arbitrary, of course, but we all know arbitrariness is often the reality of dealing with significant beareaucratic discretion.
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Old 15-10-2010, 02:45   #221
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GST is applicable regardless of the age.
Some motor vehicles were discounted on duty due to their age.
Duty is 5% or 0% if the boat is made in the USA or NZ as we free trade agreements with them.
It is my intension to employ a professional customs agent who is recommended by a friend who imports French sailing boats to OZ.
I will post any info I receive.
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Old 15-10-2010, 17:31   #222
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It is my intension to employ a professional customs agent
Smart move.

Yes, GST applies irrespective of age. Our comment about possible distinctions based on age was directed toward the inclusion (or not) of vessel transport costs beyond the last port-of-call in determining the value for Duty+GST.

We still suspect, however, that in all areas involving discretion on the part of Customs -- Whether the extent of transport costs included is such an area of discretion is another question -- that discretion will in any event be more kindly exercised where the particular Customs Officer feels the importer is 'straight'...and having a professional customs agent would certainly be in the importer's favour!
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Old 16-10-2010, 18:47   #223
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Just to get a bit off topic.
Say you have made your purchase and decided how your going to try get out of paying the import and gst ( bring it in as a charter boat), but not for me.
The boat is ready and you are waiting to save the money for the cost of the passage from the west coast mexico or US somwhere.
You are doing the passage as a delivery , and not really as a holiday , eg as fast as you can ( you had to borrow a heap maybe and have to get back to work asap)
But of course you will do a little site seeing , the odd dinner at a nice restaurant etc.
You obviously plan on sailing as much as possible , and use as little fuel as possible .

The biggy question . How much should you put aside or have for this trip, without the contingency of breakdowns / repairs, but including visa and immigration costs .
I was thinking 15k , would this cover it. Or am i way out of the ball park.
Remeber , a dream trip , no repairs etc included.
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Old 20-10-2010, 00:11   #224
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Can anybody enlighten me as to why this boat a Lagoon 410 in Spain ..... YachtWorld.com Boats and Yachts for Sale

is sooooooo much cheaper than this one?

A Lagoon 410 in Sydney....
Boats For Sale - Search New & Used Boats - BoatPoint Australia

Snip
Yeah we get ripped off substantially. Although the agents for Lagoon, Ben, Jen, hanse etc will tell you its all about shipping costs and rewiring of the electrical systems. Of course it has nothing to do with the MARGINS they put onto the vessel once it arrives.

The same rip offs occur with US vessels as well. Even second hand vessels out of greece or BVI are substantially cheaper than Aus prices.

Although, I was recently quoted US23,000 for a 36ft mono to be shipped over. That figure in no way represents anything near the margins the Agents downunder are asking. Although, in thier defence, they do have to provide the warrantees, carry stock and have the other usual day to day business expenses that the parent Co in Europe or US would otherwise absorb..
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Old 20-10-2010, 05:33   #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reefer
Can anybody enlighten me as to why this boat a Lagoon 410 in Spain ..... YachtWorld.com Boats and Yachts for Sale

is sooooooo much cheaper than this one?

A Lagoon 410 in Sydney....
Boats For Sale - Search New & Used Boats - BoatPoint Australia
Your links dont end up at particular boats, but Yachtworld shows a 1999 410 in spain for 281K aus up to an 04 at 445K and prices in between.

Australian listed 410s on boatpoint are 369K for a 99 private sale to 425K for an 03.



Snip
Quote:
Yeah we get ripped off substantially. Although the agents for Lagoon, Ben, Jen, hanse etc will tell you its all about shipping costs and rewiring of the electrical systems. Of course it has nothing to do with the MARGINS they put onto the vessel once it arrives.

The same rip offs occur with US vessels as well. Even second hand vessels out of greece or BVI are substantially cheaper than Aus prices.

Although, I was recently quoted US23,000 for a 36ft mono to be shipped over. That figure in no way represents anything near the margins the Agents downunder are asking. Although, in thier defence, they do have to provide the warrantees, carry stock and have the other usual day to day business expenses that the parent Co in Europe or US would otherwise absorb.
.

so the 04 boat is 25k dearer than the 03 boat in australia. Roughly speaking landed in Aus the spanish boat will be 511,000 not including the price of getting it here. Lets say it cost 29K to get it here - so minimum of 540K for that spanish boat, or over 100K more than the oz 03 boat, presuming that they boats are similar nick and equipment - Makes the oz boat look cheap to me.

The 99 boat is spain is 280K or 322k (duty and GST) not including getting it here, say 29 k again, 351K, as against the private sale 99 oz boat for $370, seems comparable if you add in the flights over to have a look, and I have only worked GST and Duty on the base price, the actual reality is they are calculated on the landed price.
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