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Old 19-08-2010, 15:45   #196
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Hi all,
Sorry to bring up old forums, but of course we all like to save a dollar where we can.
My issue is I dont know where to look up info , and not much of a reader , eg prefer a spanner in my hand.

Looking at bringing /sailing myself , a boat back from the US .
The boat is South African made so no FTA
It will be a multihull .
For a carton ( surely world currancy) can you ask the broker to give you a reciept for say the price of a same age/length mono .Instant savings.
The market is everywhere , how can the gov or customs claim otherwise.

Next option , My partner is Japanese , english speaking with scuba instructors tickets . Has worked in Aus . She has now got permanant residance.
Maybe we could register the boat in her name in Japan , and with the permanant visa , still leave the boat here in Aus. Must admit , would feel a bit awkward flying a Japanaese Flag , But could save us literally thousands .
You can not buy the same quality ( eg Aus has exellent quality and boats)for the same money .

Thanks for your thoughts and knowledge.
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Old 19-08-2010, 16:16   #197
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G'day mate

Our understandings -- We are not experts -- are...

Firstly, any vessel that resides in Australia will be subject to Aussie Duty (and GST, the real elephant in the closet, altho there are ways to avoid this one of course) and Customs officials are on the lookout for 'flags of convenience'. We know first hand of one story in Sydney Harbour that pretty well convinced us there is NO way for a vessel to stay permanently in Australia without being noticed by Customs.

Secondly as regards the value applied for Duty, you're right about the market -- We assume you're talking of a second-hand vessel? -- being all over the place, BUT...Customs have some tricks, e.g. (i) they are quite capable of verifying sale documents that appear to suggest low values and (ii) they will want to see your boat's insured value as well. So far as we know, the only way to minimise -- Note we did NOT say 'avoid'! -- Duty is to keep and sail your vessel outside of Australia for a long time -- Some say a year or more -- before bringing it here; in that case the value will be a matter for discussion, rather than proof by sale documents, but again, Customs will at least want to see your insurance value.

There is no doubt the taxes are ugly, but anyone who's ended up fighting a Government agency (whose resources are effectively unlimited and whose powers, e.g. siezure of your vessel, are vast) will probably tell you the cost of the fight in time, money and anxiety is often WAY bigger than the tax saved. So we concluded that these taxes are just the cost for living in this great country with its beautiful, vast and often empty cruising areas!

Good luck crossing the Southern Ocean...and we hope you're not going to attempt that in winter!?!
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Old 19-08-2010, 16:25   #198
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Its really a killjoy as they say isnt it .
Bugger.
I would always prefer to fly the Aussie flag.
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Old 19-08-2010, 19:37   #199
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Again, I am no expert, but I think you would have to take the boat out of OZ regularly if she were Japanese (or anything other than OZ) flaggged to avoid having to pay.

A lot of trouble and not nearly as easy as sailing across to north Africa from Europe if in the Med.
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Old 19-08-2010, 21:00   #200
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You can not get away from import duty. If you are an Oz resident then you get 3 months and thats it pay up. If the purchase price seems low customs will have the boat valued by a qualified serveyor at your expence. Oh and dont rely on the purchase price at the time of purchase, customs will apply the exchange rate at the time of application not the sale date. So if you got it at say 90c in the $ but the AUS $ drops to 70c then that is what they will work it out as.
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Old 19-08-2010, 21:54   #201
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So they will give you 3 months.Is that right.
Customs just told me , you must pay or they impound your boat, untill paid, and charge you for the cost of the slip or wherever it lies.
Do They impound the boat during the 3 months to pay or can you move it to you own mooring etc
So maybe trying to lesson the purchase price is not good either , as they can make an usumption (only) that its not right , then charge you on what the boat is worth in Australia nearly double. So unfair , and they want me to vote this weekend.
I also mentioned , that if I was to pay Aussie prices , it wouldnt be happening , so in actual fact I am creating work for others , maintenance , mods etc , not taking work away from fellow Australians.
There is no real fairness . Just the gov revenue making at its own peoples expense.
The rich get richer , the poor get poorer.
Double bugger.
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Old 20-08-2010, 00:29   #202
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So they will give you 3 months.Is that right.
Customs just told me , you must pay or they impound your boat, untill paid, and charge you for the cost of the slip or wherever it lies.
Do They impound the boat during the 3 months to pay or can you move it to you own mooring etc
So maybe trying to lesson the purchase price is not good either , as they can make an usumption (only) that its not right , then charge you on what the boat is worth in Australia nearly double. So unfair , and they want me to vote this weekend.
I also mentioned , that if I was to pay Aussie prices , it wouldnt be happening , so in actual fact I am creating work for others , maintenance , mods etc , not taking work away from fellow Australians.
There is no real fairness . Just the gov revenue making at its own peoples expense.
The rich get richer , the poor get poorer.
Double bugger.
I am not sure about impounding the boat, but they will keep a strong eye on you, If you move the boat you must tell them you are moving and report your arrival, even if it is to another marina nothing may be removed from the boat. If you sail into Aus as an Aus resident you have 3 months to remove the boat from Aus waters or pay the duty. if you buy the boat o/s at a fair price they will not quible but if it seems too low or was bought from a reletive they will investigate.
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Old 23-08-2010, 02:47   #203
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OK more questions.
I was also told you may need some sort of certifaicate for the refrigeration gas and or the aircon system before entering into Aus.
What is all this about and how do you go about it.
Getting more confused every day , is this really all nesecary.
Going for a beer , Darren
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Old 23-08-2010, 20:02   #204
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OK more questions.
I was also told you may need some sort of certifaicate for the refrigeration gas and or the aircon system before entering into Aus.
What is all this about and how do you go about it.
Getting more confused every day , is this really all nesecary.
Going for a beer , Darren
I have never heard of this and doubt they would be interested. one of the hidden cost is pest inspection by AQIS you have to pay for an inspection, If they find anything suspicious they will order a fumigation, if they find nothing but THAY are of the opinion there is enough wood in the boat to be a threat then you will be ordered to fumigate ( you do not want to fumigate, Oz is one of the last countries to still allow the use of the nasty chemical they use) the only option given to you will be to have a dog come aboard and sniff the boat. The closest dog to Qld is in Yamba NSW and will set you back @ $750 + travel and accomadation.
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Old 13-10-2010, 20:50   #205
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The AUD is nearly at parity and the US market appears to have botomed, it looks like it's now or never time to bring a boat in.
How many of you have done a deal now and are in the process of bring your new boat home?
Are there any tips you would like to share?
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Old 13-10-2010, 22:43   #206
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Hi Dragon Lady
Currency markets are notoriously difficult to predict, so a conclusion that the US $ has bottomed would be difficult to substantiate. My personal opinion is that it has more to go against the Aust. $, but that is only a personal opinion. I've been keeping an eye on UK boats (who's currency is also falling against the Au$) and prices are becoming very attractive compared to what can be bought out here. For example English half tonners comparable to say an S&S 34 can be purchased to 1/2-2/3rds the price of an australian boat. The downside to this is I suspect that a breed of boat that doesn't have an established class in Aust and not all that familiar with Aust buyers will not command as good a price on the re-sale market over here as a boat with an established australian class.

I phoned customs the other day asking them how do they ascertain whether or not they need to value an imported boat. They wouldn't give me a definitive answer so I find this aspect a little confusing. Say you bought a UK boat and brought it back (same would apply to a US boat) and purchased it at market price over there, would customs view that value as fair or do they base it on the price it would achieve on the australian market?
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Old 13-10-2010, 23:29   #207
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Hi Claverton,

Sorry I didn't mean the currency market, I was referring to the second hand boat market. Which I may well be wrong but all the fire sales appear to have gone off in the particular cat market I'm interested. It's now a case of convincing the remaining owners to come down to the current market price.
As for customs valuations, the customs people are well within their rights to charge you on the current market value of the boat in Australia.
However they are generally decent folk who are not out to get you.
They also bemoan the fact that they don’t get any of the GST that they have to collect on behalf of the ATO.
If you buy something a little different you will be at an advantage as there is nothing to compare on the Australian market.
If you are reasonable and appear honest there should be no issue.
The chance of the AUD going higher against the green back is quite possible with the yanks saying they are going to print more cash and Oz interest rates looking like starting to rise.
But who knows, I also think the prices of Oz boats are starting to fall especially with the vendors who are hopping to take advantage of the O/S markets and upgrade their boats so want to sell fast.
As for classes of boat that generally applies to racing boats with class afiliation or some of the local boats with a cult following which may not always be justified.
The thing I have done is find a boat that I like out here so I know I like the design, this way I only have to worry about the condition of any boats I find O/S.
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Old 14-10-2010, 00:19   #208
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all the fire sales appear to have gone off in the particular cat market I'm interested
Which cat market is that Dragon Lady? We tend to agree with the direction of your thinking, viz. the currency position looks attractive -- Even if it improves somewhat in the short term, it seems a good chance this whole period will be later viewed as an attractive opportunity to import a vessel to Australia -- and there are still some markets with weak vendors. We see the currency situation as 'ripe for the picking'...and thus the real issue becomes...how's the supply of weak vendors holding up?

Hence we're curious which cat market you're watching. We're looking for a cruising cat in the 11-14m range, ideally <5yrs old...and you? We think there are still weak vendors out there for us, but not as many as say 6 months ago.
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Old 14-10-2010, 00:35   #209
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Dragon Lady

Found an Oram 44C Outahia – 44′C for sale Bob Oram Design

Not sure if it is in your price range

regards
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Old 14-10-2010, 03:06   #210
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Some interesting observations about the Australian cat market compared to the US and Caribbean markets.
Using the Lagoon 380 as a case study it is easy to compare "apples with apples" and convert all currencies to Australian dollars at current comversion rates.
This boat, a owner's version 380 with the same high spec cruising/ liveaboard fittout has an "advertised new price" of approx A$380,000 in the US (as per "Yachtworld") and A$465,000 in Sydney, Australia. The cost of shipping from France to Australia (A$56,000) is probably greater than to the US. Then we have A$57,000 in duties and GST in Aus. Not sure about US import taxes, but these two costs and the limited sales volumes may partially explain the difference in new boat prices.

The second hand market is much harder to explain. Secondhand boats in the US seem to drop about 20% in the first year and about 10% per annum for the next few years after that. At about 5 years and older, boat condition determines prices as depreciation plateaus.

In Australia we have far fewer for sale and the asking price is often greater than new prices. Not just Lagoon 380s either, many other brands or advertised secondhand for greater than current new price. Some brokers don't know the new price or explain that the price is set by the owner not him.

The high costs associated with shipping or delivery of a cruising catamaran to Australia are similiar for new and secondhand boats. Unless the delivery is part of your cruising plan it makes it hard to justify spending such a large amount of money importing an old boat. For example, the shipping costs may be as much as a 10 year old cat's purchase price, effectively doubling the total cost.

So, what's best best option to cost effectively get into a liveaboard cruising cat in Australia. New, you need at least half a mil. The L380 is what I reckon "entry level".
Second hand, prices are "over optimistic" in Australia and import/shipping costs make the cheap foreign boat "not so cheap anymore".

Perhaps the best plan is to buy new overseas? Using the L380 again, purchase close to the A$325,000 "factory price" in France. Buy in wife's name (OK, "partner"), register as an Australian ship and spend the next year cruising it home. Nearer to home you may wish to buy the now secondhand boat from your partner at an internationally realistic price, and patrioticly pay your taxes on this amount when you arrive home. Some time would need to be spent near Les Sables d'Olonne drinking vin de pays and getting lagoon to fix up the bits that weren't done right before keying in Australia as a waypoint, but the approx A$100,000 cost saving should easily cover the cruising kitty. Is it an option?
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