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Old 02-08-2015, 18:44   #31
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Re: I'm learning but... need more education

I use the traveler all the time.


To expand a little what cruisingcat wrote, in wavy/choppy conditions its good to trim more twist into the main so I keep the traveler further to windward and loser mainsheet. This makes the main more forgiving as the boat move around in the waves. Contrary, in flat water I move the car down to leeward a bit and crank the mainsheet harder with makes for better pointing. Flat&firm mainsail for pointing, full&soft for drive and forgiveness.


My boat doesn't have a vang. As the wind angle opens up, I sheet the main with a twist to my liking to the wind/wave conditions and use the traveler to set the main at the right angle. As the wind changes in direction/strength I would mostly use the traveler. But if there a major strength change, sheet tension needs to be adjusted.


Light stuff its its the opposite. Leach tension is more critical.


But in all, once set I change the traveler more often than the mainsheet.


On the subject traveler vs. bridle, every mainsail setting can be achieved with both systems. But I do prefer the traveler because if I want to change the setting it will be either angle or leach tension and with the traveler its only one line, traveler or mainsheet. With the bridle, both ends needs to be adjusted ie. two lines.
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Old 02-08-2015, 19:22   #32
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Re: I'm learning but... need more education

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Originally Posted by cabo_sailor View Post
Thank you, I wasn't aware of the other factors. I thought it was just bridge height.

Rich
Quite a good article which discusses the other factors which combine with raw height:

http://www.liveantares.com/pdf/BridgedeckClearance.pdf
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Old 02-08-2015, 21:12   #33
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Re: I'm learning but... need more education

Thanks Stu,

Someday I'll need to go out on cat. I'll admit I'm intrigued for a new experience.

Rich.


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Old 03-08-2015, 14:04   #34
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Re: I'm learning but... need more education

In my last post I'd hoped to attach this from Leopard about their 48 to see what people thought... Had a note back from them to say they wouldn't even entertain the idea of shaft drives, citing imbalances etc.. so if I was dead set on them its Antares or SF.
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Old 03-08-2015, 14:45   #35
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Re: I'm learning but... need more education

Heath,

It's been a long time since I looked at cats but Antares was on my short list. I do seem to recall a concern on their windage. How does their freeboard compare to the other boats on your list?


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Old 03-08-2015, 15:54   #36
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Re: I'm learning but... need more education

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In my last post I'd hoped to attach this from Leopard about their 48 to see what people thought... Had a note back from them to say they wouldn't even entertain the idea of shaft drives, citing imbalances etc.. so if I was dead set on them its Antares or SF.
Interesting polar. It does say it's theoretical, and I'd have to say I find it unlikely a Leopard 48 could in reality exceed TWS in 6 knots.
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Old 04-08-2015, 01:33   #37
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Re: I'm learning but... need more education

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Interesting polar. It does say it's theoretical, and I'd have to say I find it unlikely a Leopard 48 could in reality exceed TWS in 6 knots.
I will back London to a Brick it can't exceed TWS in 6 knots or indeed in any knots, unless of course its motoring - which all cats do.
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Old 04-08-2015, 10:08   #38
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Re: I'm learning but... need more education

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Originally Posted by cabo_sailor View Post
It's been a long time since I looked at cats but Antares was on my short list. I do seem to recall a concern on their windage. How does their freeboard compare to the other boats on your list?
The Antares and other cats with more than average bridgedeck clearance tend to have a lot of freeboard - these dimensions are directly related. But not all of these "high" cats have the same windage above the deck level. Look at the structures comprising the deck houses, biminis, fly bridges, etc. The amount of windage is obviously dependent on the total package.

Dave
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Old 06-08-2015, 11:27   #39
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Re: I'm learning but... need more education

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Originally Posted by cabo_sailor View Post
Heath,

It's been a long time since I looked at cats but Antares was on my short list. I do seem to recall a concern on their windage. How does their freeboard compare to the other boats on your list?


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Hi, Thanks for the comment. Antares has always been in my list as well. Regarding windage the Antares is a little low.. at a little over 1000sq ft its almost 200sq ft less than the Helia of the same length and only 2/3rds the size of the Leopard 48.
I can't find any details on freeboard, St Francis owners talk of no problems with their height and Ted Clements (Antares Designer) says it is "consistent with other cats" but doesn't say any more than that. So the short answer is I don't know.. although Ted goes on to say "The freeboard of the vessel is dictated by the requirement for full headroom in the side hulls. The hull cabin soles are placed no more than three safe stair heights (30″ +/-) below the bridge deck height which is a function of hull centre line spacing and wave clearance."

hope that helps
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Old 06-08-2015, 11:55   #40
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Re: I'm learning but... need more education

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I don't know if I am full of mud...but one of the things I know about big cats is this...weight is a real issue.

The formula I use is this. Take the tonnage of the boat and multiply by 2000 to get weight in pounds. Then divide that total weight by the length of the boat. For example an Outremer light that weighs 7.42 tons and is 49.88 feet long will equal
297. [ (7.42 X2000) ./. by49.88=297] Outremer lights are very fast cats. Now take some of the more palatial cats that weight 9.8 tons with same length...same formula (9.8 x 2000 divided by 49 foot = 400. This cat is a much heavier cat and will not perform as well as the Outremer light....unless the manufacture places a huge rig...huge sails...etc.
My two cents. It would probably be a good calculation, but most manufacturer weights published are not realistic. Or there is no baseline - does it include the mast, the motors, generator, whatever? Does lightship mean hull only? Even if you follow Lagoon weights for the same models produced over many years, the displacement numbers are all over the place.

I agree that weight is a huge factor in performance. And we've rated real cats with 38 ft of length that weigh 7,000 lbs, up to whatever (20,000 lbs). If we could ever get the manufacturers to provide real weights, our lives as PHRF rating committee would be so much easier.
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Old 06-08-2015, 12:44   #41
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Re: I'm learning but... need more education

Heath, windage is the amount of area of the hull facing the wind.ie a high windage cat will have high freeboard and a high saloon, such as a Lagoon 400/450. Low windage will have less freeboard and a more aerodynamic saloon with less internal headroom. Sail areas are more relevant to overall weight than length. For instance our Lagoon 400 is about the same weight and similar sail area to an outremer 50. A lot of cats have been lengthened by the manufacturers from the original design to improve performance, but the rig and sails remain unchanged. Sail area is the most relevant for ease of handling under sail so rather than compare length of cats, it's probably better to compare similar sail areas. Some designs have stepped decks (lagoon 380/440) which makes for a lower freeboard, but similar windage to if it were flush deck. The Antares is similar in freeboard and windage to the L400/440. Adverse effects of high windage are being blown more to leeward when tacking upwind than a lower/more airo dynamic design, as well as more susceptible to being blown around entering marinas. Off the wind there's not a huge difference, although a Lagoon 450 with enclosed flybridge is likely to sail at 5kn+ downwind without sails in some situations. Benefits of those designs are more interior volume and flat clear side decks. As always, it's a trade off with size/volume/weight/handling/performance and cost.
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Old 13-08-2015, 13:57   #42
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Re: I'm learning but... need more education

This has been a fascinating thread for me. I just wish I had access to this kind of info when I was deciding between cat and mono.

Thank you all.

Rich




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