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Old 01-08-2015, 10:18   #16
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Re: I'm learning but... need more education

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Originally Posted by exMaggieDrum View Post
May be it is just me but a strong accidental gybe looks like it could completely rip off the bimini of the cat with the two hard points. Of course the only time the boom could move if both sheets are snug would be if the boom is outboard of one of the hard points. Just looks kind of flimsy.
I can't speak to the strength of the bimini, but why would having a traveler instead be stronger?

Your second sentence reveals a benefit of the dual sheet system - Full Monty accidental gybes can be avoided because the boom can be easily held outboard. On boats with these set ups there's usually a padeye out near the toe rail that is available to attach a preventer to - either an extra line or, in my case, I can relocate the sheet anchor point from the normal position to the far outboard position via the snapshackle. No need for a vang.

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Old 01-08-2015, 12:30   #17
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Re: I'm learning but... need more education

I was speaking to a traveler versus two outboard anchor padeyes. My thought was about the padeyes in the picture were not as far outboard as they could be so that there is more distance the boom could swing before the padeye on that side could stop if coming across. Just looking at the picture it seemed that a lot of force could lift and potential damage the bimini and its supports to the cockpit deck. But it may be fine as is.

And there is nothing to prevent you from installing and using two padeyes as preventers even with a traveler, wherever it is located on the rig if you liked that setup. I have done so in the past. But they can't "lock" the boom farther outside the outboard rail, and in fact, the farther over the water the boom end is, the more slack that has to be in the line on that side of the boat that goes to the boom end. The only way to secure it when it is over the water is to have a hard point and line forward of the boom on that side as a preventer.
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Old 01-08-2015, 13:24   #18
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Re: I'm learning but... need more education

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Originally Posted by exMaggieDrum View Post
But they can't "lock" the boom farther outside the outboard rail, and in fact, the farther over the water the boom end is, the more slack that has to be in the line on that side of the boat that goes to the boom end. The only way to secure it when it is over the water is to have a hard point and line forward of the boom on that side as a preventer.
I agree - the other way is to have a lot more beam.

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Old 01-08-2015, 20:27   #19
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Re: I'm learning but... need more education

Its not likely the boom could go much further than the outside padeye without the top of the main touching the swept back spreaders and shrouds anyway. The pad eyes are likely to be through bolted to the ss framework below the bimini. Ripping them out would require ripping out of the bimini support posts as well. Reefing should have probably occurred sometime before then :P
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Old 02-08-2015, 10:07   #20
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Re: I'm learning but... need more education

From a pure sail control, you want to separate tuning the boom vertical (mainly leach control) and horizontal (sheeting angle). As an example, if you want to adjust twist, you only want to adjust one line, not two. As such, a traveler mainsheet system is superior to a dual pad-eye (or bridle) and I think it would be hard to find a race boat without a traveler for the mainsheet.


For real active sailing, you typically only play sheeting angle maintaining constant leach tension, which would be hard to do on a bridle system. Developing a tuning matrix, ie sheeting angle/leach tension/windspeed/seastate would also be hard to do with a bridle system vs. traveler.


For a cruising boat other factors comes to play, and perhaps there are space/costs benefits with a bridle system. Having a bridle system on the bimini as on the Leopard can only be cost driven and it wouldn't surprise me if the two bridle lines goes to the same winch trough separate clutches. If so, tuning would be very cumbersome. Given that the bimini is close the boom they cannot place the two blocks far apart as if they do it would be hard to generate enough leach tension. In my view, bad design to save cost.
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Old 02-08-2015, 10:50   #21
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Re: I'm learning but... need more education

Interesting comments IC. I'm wondering how much you use your traveller and where you would normally place it, say upwind, beam reach, broad reach. I rarely use mine and leave it centred. On a beam reach with the main almost touching the shrouds, the boom lifts a little in the gusts and the gust spills a bit as the square top main twists. Adjusting our traveller is a bit cumbersome but doable. I just haven't found any increase in performance to date by playing with it. I think the double mainsheet system would allow better control as you can eliminate any movement at all due to the 3 directions of control, but I haven't used one so I'm relying on others comments.
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Old 02-08-2015, 12:14   #22
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Re: I'm learning but... need more education

I have no cat experience but did a bunch of research on them before buying my present boat.

I'm surprised no one seem to have mentioned what I believe was bridge height and wave slap. Is it not as important as I was led to believe?


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Old 02-08-2015, 12:35   #23
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Re: I'm learning but... need more education

The first time I encountered a bridle mainsheet system was on an Aloha 32 in the mid 80's. I was not a big fan.

When I saw the bridle system on a Leopard 48 that I delivered from the BVIs to Panama last summer I was pleasantly surprised. It worked well, even in a big ease that we had to do in a serious squall.

The difference is the distance between the attachment points.

I think it is a good solution for boats that have a rigid bimini. It also opens up the whole of the back deck space and makes it safer. A friend got hit by a mainsheet on a gybe, when someone had neglected to secure the pins on the traveler track.
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Old 02-08-2015, 14:16   #24
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Re: I'm learning but... need more education

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Originally Posted by cabo_sailor View Post
I have no cat experience but did a bunch of research on them before buying my present boat.

I'm surprised no one seem to have mentioned what I believe was bridge height and wave slap. Is it not as important as I was led to believe?


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I have not heard of any issues with any of the three models I am considering.. the lowest of which is the Antares 44i with 76cm. I had heard that other factors that influence whether or not a hull slams include the volume ( buoyancy) of the hulls, the distance they are apart, the load the vessel is carrying, any protuberances on the side of the hulls ("chamfer panels") and the way the vessel is operated ("seamanship"). The last factor being arguably the most important.

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Old 02-08-2015, 14:24   #25
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Re: I'm learning but... need more education

Thank you, I wasn't aware of the other factors. I thought it was just bridge height.

Rich


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Old 02-08-2015, 14:28   #26
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Re: I'm learning but... need more education

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The first time I encountered a bridle mainsheet system was on an Aloha 32 in the mid 80's. I was not a big fan.

When I saw the bridle system on a Leopard 48 that I delivered from the BVIs to Panama last summer I was pleasantly surprised. It worked well, even in a big ease that we had to do in a serious squall.

The difference is the distance between the attachment points.

I think it is a good solution for boats that have a rigid bimini. It also opens up the whole of the back deck space and makes it safer. A friend got hit by a mainsheet on a gybe, when someone had neglected to secure the pins on the traveler track.
Thank you Jackdale.. your experience is a valuable insight into what is often "new" to many readers. Would you like to share any other observations from your delivery? I know not many (including me.. still trying to get a lift somewhere) contributors on here have direct experience with the 48. It would certainly help with my assessment. For example I was a little worried about the displacement of the 48 as it seemed "heavy". Do you know is these statistics are accurate?

Thanks
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Old 02-08-2015, 15:34   #27
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Re: I'm learning but... need more education

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Interesting comments IC. I'm wondering how much you use your traveller and where you would normally place it, say upwind, beam reach, broad reach. I rarely use mine and leave it centred. On a beam reach with the main almost touching the shrouds, the boom lifts a little in the gusts and the gust spills a bit as the square top main twists. Adjusting our traveller is a bit cumbersome but doable. I just haven't found any increase in performance to date by playing with it. I think the double mainsheet system would allow better control as you can eliminate any movement at all due to the 3 directions of control, but I haven't used one so I'm relying on others comments.
You should try using your traveller!

Normal upwind - traveller centred.
Upwind in light stuff - traveller upwind, sheet eased, opens up the leach.
Downwind, traveller down, so less sheet out, makes unplanned gybes a non - event.

Gybing, the boom can be controlled using the traveller (with control lines, not stop pins).
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Old 02-08-2015, 15:55   #28
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Re: I'm learning but... need more education

That Leopard system really isn't spaced far enough to have the control that 2Hulls has with his. HOWEVER, the Leopard also has a vang, so that takes control on the deeper reaching/running angles where even 2Hull's system will poop out.

Seems like the optimum setup to me.

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Old 02-08-2015, 17:14   #29
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Re: I'm learning but... need more education

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That Leopard system really isn't spaced far enough to have the control that 2Hulls has with his. HOWEVER, the Leopard also has a vang, so that takes control on the deeper reaching/running angles where even 2Hull's system will poop out.
Vang, schmang. You're mostly right , Mark.

I can relocate the mainsheet anchor points to a padeye way outboard near the toe rail and forward of the helms. The lower blocks have snap shackles just for this. No need for a vang. That said, I rarely use this feature. If I need to go that deep when cruising I use a sym spi (with no main) if it's not too windy, headsail alone if it is...

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Old 02-08-2015, 17:57   #30
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Re: I'm learning but... need more education

hehe, vang schmang :P
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