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Old 15-04-2013, 03:15   #1
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I'm a tiller guy, not a wheel guy. With a tiller, I felt I always had complete...

...control of the boat. As my boats got bigger, the tiller changed to a wheel. The wheel on my present boat rotates five 360 rotations lock to lock with hydraulic steering. It's a 62' modern trimaran, sails fast, but it is difficult to dock because the wheel spends like a top maneuvering the boat, as you might imagine. I would prefer a single 360 degree turn lock to lock. I feel as though I would have more control. Legitimate request? Smart request? Any help would be appreciated...
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Old 15-04-2013, 04:00   #2
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Re: I'm a tiller guy, not a wheel guy. With a tiller, I felt I always had complete...

Cant help, but my wheels are one turn lock to lock. So it is possible.
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Old 15-04-2013, 04:22   #3
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Re: I'm a tiller guy, not a wheel guy. With a tiller, I felt I always had complete...

Seem to remember the Vetus catalogue had different hydraulic pumps, looks like you need a bigger pump stroke or if the steering is very light change the linkage. You move the hydraulic arm closer to the rudder shaft so a similar amount of travel on the arm produces greater a turning movement.

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Old 15-04-2013, 04:43   #4
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360 lock to lock might be a bit too much overcorrection from what you have. Around two turns is more common for a nice performance feel.
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Old 15-04-2013, 06:33   #5
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Re: I'm a tiller guy, not a wheel guy. With a tiller, I felt I always had complete...

Consider that the reason for 5 turns lock-to-lock is to give you leverage. If you reduce it to one turn lock-to-lock then the force required to turn the wheel will increase by 5 times. Do you really want that?
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Old 15-04-2013, 06:52   #6
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Re: I'm a tiller guy, not a wheel guy. With a tiller, I felt I always had complete...

My Finnsailer 38 has two hydraulic wheels. The forward one under the pilot house is smaller in diameter and has more turns lock to lock for much easier effort and is designed for use mainly under power, though in reality it is the steering position we use most of the time. Our boat is so well balanced under sail that I find I don't need to make a lot of steering correction, assuming I have the sails set properly. The aft wheel is bigger and has less turns, theoretically providing a better feel under sail, and it does turn quicker, but with more effort. I find it tiring after awhile and not really needed most of the time, though it can be fun steering to windward from further aft with the "feel wheel." Under power and docking, I find the forward wheel better as the number of turns provides for very precise steering inputs, and there is less of a tendency to oversteer.
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Old 15-04-2013, 07:07   #7
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Re: I'm a tiller guy, not a wheel guy. With a tiller, I felt I always had complete...

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Originally Posted by daddle View Post
360 lock to lock might be a bit too much overcorrection from what you have. Around two turns is more common for a nice performance feel.
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Originally Posted by denverd0n View Post
Consider that the reason for 5 turns lock-to-lock is to give you leverage. If you reduce it to one turn lock-to-lock then the force required to turn the wheel will increase by 5 times. Do you really want that?
Its a cat - it shouldn't be heavy or need buckets of mechanical advantage
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Old 15-04-2013, 07:13   #8
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Re: I'm a tiller guy, not a wheel guy. With a tiller, I felt I always had complete...

too bad there isn't some sort of gear shift so you can have both. Is there?

Shimano?
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Old 15-04-2013, 07:56   #9
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Re: I'm a tiller guy, not a wheel guy. With a tiller, I felt I always had complete...

62' trimaran, right?

Just how difficult would it be to convert to a tiller? Have you looked into that? I wish I could do that with the cat, and I guess I could, but I've got two blades to deal with...
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Old 15-04-2013, 09:33   #10
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Re: I'm a tiller guy, not a wheel guy. With a tiller, I felt I always had complete...

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Its a cat - it shouldn't be heavy or need buckets of mechanical advantage
Doesn't matter. The fact remains that if you go from 5 turns lock-to-lock, to 1 turn lock-to-lock, then it MUST become 5 times harder to turn the wheel. Whether or not that increase is significant enough to be a show stopper is a different question, but certainly one that the OP should consider.

In any case, I'm willing to bet that the people who designed and built the boat didn't put in a 5-turn, lock-to-lock steering system just because they like seeing the wheel spin round and round.
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Old 15-04-2013, 13:50   #11
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Re: I'm a tiller guy, not a wheel guy. With a tiller, I felt I always had complete...

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Doesn't matter. The fact remains that if you go from 5 turns lock-to-lock, to 1 turn lock-to-lock, then it MUST become 5 times harder to turn the wheel. Whether or not that increase is significant enough to be a show stopper is a different question, but certainly one that the OP should consider.

In any case, I'm willing to bet that the people who designed and built the boat didn't put in a 5-turn, lock-to-lock steering system just because they like seeing the wheel spin round and round.
Does matter. Steering on monos has to cope with heel, and on some boats that can place massive loads on the rudder, think transom hung skinny quick boat like an Adams 10 or similar. As soon as she heels the rudder forces become huge and the system has to be able to handle that.

Its a custom built boat, It may not have what the designer specified, and indeed the designer may or may not have specified anything to that particularity. My only suggestion is to ask Kurt Hughes the designer for input.
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Old 15-04-2013, 14:05   #12
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Re: I'm a tiller guy, not a wheel guy. With a tiller, I felt I always had complete...

Hydraulic pressure problem.
Check the pressure of your Hydraulic system, there might be a gauge on some container. Check the hydraulic oil level, and check the hydraulic shaft to see if there is not any leak.
Bleed the circuit like for brakes in a car :
There should be 2 bolts in the shaft that you have to untighten, then someone turn the wheel left to right several times, do that until no air coming off, only oil.
Fill up your oil in the container, then with a bicycle air pump, add pressure to the system.
Very easy and fast to do.
Depending on the pressure put in the system you can make one turn to 6 turns
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Old 15-04-2013, 14:09   #13
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Re: I'm a tiller guy, not a wheel guy. With a tiller, I felt I always had complete...

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Originally Posted by denverd0n View Post
In any case, I'm willing to bet that the people who designed and built the boat didn't put in a 5-turn, lock-to-lock steering system just because they like seeing the wheel spin round and round.
It is possible a too-small (in relation to the cylinder) helm pump was selected due to price though. Bigger helm pumps can be much more expensive.

But the solution will be either a bigger capacity helm pump, or, if the existing one is oversized, a smaller capacity cylinder.
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Old 15-04-2013, 14:13   #14
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Re: I'm a tiller guy, not a wheel guy. With a tiller, I felt I always had complete...

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Hydraulic pressure problem.
Check the pressure of your Hydraulic system, there might be a gauge on some container. Check the hydraulic oil level, and check the hydraulic shaft to see if there is not any leak.
Bleed the circuit like for brakes in a car :
There should be 2 bolts in the shaft that you have to untighten, then someone turn the wheel left to right several times, do that until no air coming off, only oil.
Fill up your oil in the container, then with a bicycle air pump, add pressure to the system.
Very easy and fast to do.
And don't read all the bullshit said before.
Depending on the pressure put in the system you can make one turn to 6 turns
Sorry, but with any system I've seen, increasing the overall system pressure will not have any effect on the steering ratio.

What matters is the helm pump capacity in relation to the rudder cylinder's capacity. If you have a 500cc cylinder and a 100cc pump, you'll have 5 turns lock to lock.
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Old 15-04-2013, 14:21   #15
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Re: I'm a tiller guy, not a wheel guy. With a tiller, I felt I always had complete...

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Sorry, but with any system I've seen, increasing the overall system pressure will not have any effect on the steering ratio.

What matters is the helm pump capacity in relation to the rudder cylinder's capacity. If you have a 500cc cylinder and a 100cc pump, you'll have 5 turns lock to lock.
The pressure is not related to the loss of steering ?
I had 5 turns lock to lock on my boat, until I applied these differents steps. Then I had 3 turns, which for a cat is far enough.
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