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Old 11-04-2008, 00:31   #106
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Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
Regarding the idea that beliefs must be true if they are popular, "Look Out!" you are in danger of falling off of the edge of the world when you sail beyond the horizon! The world is flat, you know!

O.K., I'm a little puzzled by the idea that I shouldn't supply facts which demonstrate that a popular belief is untrue, because people won't believe it. Isn't this how untrue beliefs get corrected?
'
It is not a question that if it is popular it is true it is more that the buying public are not aware of new developments. These can take a long time to disseminate through to being widely held beliefs. Until this new Vinylester became available the truth was that epoxies were better but now the margin has narrowed.
As a manufacturer I will supply what the buying public wants. If I know of a product more appropriate to their application I will try and inform them. If my advice is discounted I would be a fool to be dogmatic and insist on my choice as they would only go to someone who will give them what they want without beligerent behaviour. Gideon is producing a product that conforms to widely held beliefs, rightly or wrongly. It is as simple as that. I doubt that he could just change resins to suit whatever a customer wants on an individual basis.

I agree that people should attempt to educate the massses when a better product surfaces but I think it is counter productive to insult them if they aren't as enthusiastic about your information as you are yourself. People have a natural tendency to react opposite to what is desired in these circumstances, just ask Craig of Rocna anchor fame about this.

So yes please keep presenting information on improvements and when you have reached the majority of the general buying public I am sure these current irritations will fade away. But until then please do conduct the discussion with courtesy.

Mike
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Old 11-04-2008, 01:10   #107
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The points Gideon make are based on actual experience. He has actually tried vinylesters, and found they don't suit his infusion techniques. He may not have tried every vinylester on the market - I'm sure he has other priorities.

In contrast we have someone who appears not to have even started building his boat, yet is insisting that he knows what would suit Gideon, and everyone else for that matter, better than they do. Without actually having tried any of the products he is so actively promoting. And in the last few days he has started pushing an entirely new brand down everyone's throat - still apparently without having actually tried using any of their product for himself. Is it any wonder we are sceptical?

Gideon is very enthusiastic about the materials he uses - the epoxy, the basalt fibre, etc. But he is entitled to be - he actually USES the stuff. He knows how well it works for him.
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Old 11-04-2008, 01:23   #108
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And, CruisingCat--I assume Gideon has quoted you correctly, (you are on my 'ignore' list, and I don't read your posts.)

You really must learn to read more carefully-one of my posts quoted a company that claims that epoxy boats will be 2% weaker thay they were to begin with, and vinylester boats will be 4% weaker after 10 years, not 50%. (I'll help you here, that's a 2% difference.)

You do know the difference between orthophthalic polyester resin and vinylester resin, don't you? Well, maybe not.
It didn't take you long to break your promise to avoid personal attacks did it? I have no idea where you got the 50% figure from - certainly not my post. Another planet? - maybe Uranus?

According to your post, vinylester degrades by 4%, epoxy, 2% - thats twice as much - exactly what I said.

BTW I know You still read my posts, even though you dishonestly claim that you don't - you have responded to two of them recently despite the fact that they hadn't been quoted by anyone else.
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Old 11-04-2008, 04:09   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whimsical View Post
... I agree that people should attempt to educate the masses when a better product surfaces but I think it is counter productive to insult them if they aren't as enthusiastic about your information as you are yourself. People have a natural tendency to react opposite to what is desired in these circumstances, just ask Craig of Rocna anchor fame about this.

So yes please keep presenting information on improvements and when you have reached the majority of the general buying public I am sure these current irritations will fade away. But until then please do conduct the discussion with courtesy.
Mike

Well said, Mike.


I'm watching, and my finger is poised "gentlemen" - it's your call ...
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Old 11-04-2008, 10:50   #110
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Hi, Mike

My goal isn't to persuade Gideon to change his resins. I do not care what resins Gideon uses. It may well be that at 1400 feet of elevation and 90 degrees of temperature that he can't get optimum performance from vinylester.

My goal was to clear the record, because IMHO, and I can prove it, he repeatedly made an untrue statement, which is that epoxy is stronger than vinylester. If we assume that AfricanCats are made with the best practical epoxy resin, then we must conclude, based on the math, that epoxy is weaker than a practical vinylester resin actually in daily use in boat building.

My wish here is to use math to answer what is actually a mathematical question, and every time an epoxy proponent tried to drag the question away from math, I dragged it back again. This is why I repeatedly referred to the specification sheet links I posted. Gideon never referred to the specification sheet he posted. He never told us which vinylester he tested, but he did make it clear that he does not have ideal working conditions for vinylester production.

I have started an new thread on composite materials and techniques, which I hope will remain dedicated to technical questions, and fact-based answers.

As far as public perception goes, I suspect that most boat buyers pay little attention to the material of which is is made, and that, in fact, make their decisions based on issues such as 'roominess,' number of berths, and whether or not they think it looks nice. I agree that any boat that looks different than average will have a marketing problem, but the materials of which a composite boat are made don't really show.
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Old 11-04-2008, 13:48   #111
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Responding to the origional poster.

Sir, I think it was a Soviet Admiral who had a saying posted on his office wall "Perfection will kill you. Find what is good enough and make it work."

Regarding boating - welcome to the world of compromises. Sure, I'd like a bigger/faster boat with unlimited range. But as my wife pointed out, get something and enjoy life now. Don't live on dreams as they are as illusive as perfection.

Best of luck and enjoy your boat - you've earned it!

Lee and Terry
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Old 11-04-2008, 19:09   #112
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Thanks to this discussion, I have been stimulated to look at more resins-here is a low viscosity, very strong, low styrene content, fire resistant vinylester resin that requires no antimony trioxide to be very fire resistant:-
------------------

Coincedentally, I believe there was an African Cat that burned down on her way to an European boat show a few years ago, I am not 100% sure, I will see if I can find the press release and picture.
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Old 12-04-2008, 09:41   #113
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Thanks for a very interesting thread and discussion on materials. I feel a little smarter. Curious...somewhere it was started epoxy resin is $8.00/lb and vinyl ester is $2.50/ lb. Then some where else stated on a couple thousand dollars is save between resins. What range of lbs of resin is used in a 44 or 50 ft. cat? Or what percentage of a boats cost do you figure is resin cost.
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Old 12-04-2008, 17:33   #114
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Resin and $$$

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Originally Posted by ldrhawke View Post
Thanks for a very interesting thread and discussion on materials. I feel a little smarter. Curious...somewhere it was started epoxy resin is $8.00/lb and vinyl ester is $2.50/ lb. Then some where else stated on a couple thousand dollars is save between resins. What range of lbs of resin is used in a 44 or 50 ft. cat? Or what percentage of a boats cost do you figure is resin cost.
The epoxy price was from Gideon, in S. Africa, the vinylester price was from me, in the US, from about 8 months ago. I'm sure both are more now, since they are made of (sigh) oil. An infused, cored boat where the bulkheads and furniture are cored glass will probably have about 20 to 25% of its displacement in resin weight. If you buy resin in boat-building quantities, you pay maybe 1/2 or less of the retail price.

If you mean stock boat price, when asking what percentage is resin, who knows. If you build boats for resale, you have many different overheads-probably not a very high percentage.
A gallon of resin is about 9 pounds, plus or minus maybe 10% depending on the resin.

So, for a mid-sized cat, maybe 5000 pounds of resin. There is lots of jiggery-pokery about catamaran displacements, so it is hard to pin this down-I'd say less than 5% of the retail price. For a home built boat, maybe 8% of your total costs with a modest schedule of equipment? It is hard to make a better estimate that this without many, many specifics-
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Old 12-04-2008, 18:25   #115
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$400K a year in expenses? Holy crap.

You honestly could have a nice boat, and then have another boat with a maintenance and cleaning crew following you around just over the horizon.

I can't even imagine what I'd do with that much money in a boat. But as someone said above, there is no place to factor in a bank account when your electronics crap out and you're doing double bow bearings to figure out distance off.

Good luck, and maybe hang out in some sailing schools. There are a blast! And, if you're looking for a good captain, all your instructors will probably be licensed captains, so if you like one of them a lot, hire them for yourself!
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Old 12-04-2008, 18:28   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCat View Post
The epoxy price was from Gideon, in S. Africa, the vinylester price was from me, in the US, from about 8 months ago. I'm sure both are more now, since they are made of (sigh) oil. An infused, cored boat where the bulkheads and furniture are cored glass will probably have about 20 to 25% of its displacement in resin weight. If you buy resin in boat-building quantities, you pay maybe 1/2 or less of the retail price.

If you mean stock boat price, when asking what percentage is resin, who knows. If you build boats for resale, you have many different overheads-probably not a very high percentage.
A gallon of resin is about 9 pounds, plus or minus maybe 10% depending on the resin.

So, for a mid-sized cat, maybe 5000 pounds of resin. There is lots of jiggery-pokery about catamaran displacements, so it is hard to pin this down-I'd say less than 5% of the retail price. For a home built boat, maybe 8% of your total costs with a modest schedule of equipment? It is hard to make a better estimate that this without many, many specifics-
With the resin only costing 5% of the retail price, it is not really a cost question. You use the best material for the job. If epoxy has even a little a performance edge over vinyl ester, use epoxy. If it's a million dollar 48 foot cat new, you are talking saving some fraction of $50,000 dollars for resin cost.

It doesn't sound like it will be much more than $10,000 to $20,000 saved at best for a cheaper resin. The selection of high strength carbon fiber in the critical joints or critical areas of the hull cost a lot more than that.

Your talking about the heart of the boats strength, maybe your life in bad weather to keep the boat from breaking up, and better resale value for a couple of percent savings ...maybe. A couple of change orders during construction or selection of electronics eats that amount up quickly.
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Old 12-04-2008, 23:54   #117
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The cost of a good quality vinylester in South Africa is $ 4.80 per lbs or $10.40 per kilo.
A infusion type epoxy marine grade cost $7.40 per lbs or $16.10 per kilo
we use 1200 kilo of epoxy in a FastCat so the difference would be 10440 usd on a
$ 800.000,00 cost of the boat or 1.1 %
The Cat that burned on top of a steamer on its way to Europe was a Maxim 380 and that happened because the freighter went into a storm at high speed and the cargo on the deck shifted.
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Old 13-04-2008, 00:12   #118
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"10,440 usd on a $ 800.000,00 cost of the boat or 1.1 %"

-A lot of money to a home builder, but not much at the high end of the market. I didn't follow how shifting cargo in a storm led to a fire, but the point is that fiberglass boats can burn. There's more about this on the composites thread, and on the life raft thread.
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Old 13-04-2008, 10:03   #119
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On the 49 footer I'm working on the calculations are as follows for the weights:

HULL & DECK STRUCTURE1077,16BRIDGEDECK STRUCTURE978,48BULKHEADS, INTERNAL STRUCTURE & MODULES301,66

Total of: 2357 kgs.

This includes foam of 25 to 40 mm, glass, kevlar and carbon fibres and the epoxy. For a 25 mm foam at 80 kg/m3, the foam weighs 2 kgs. Total weight of laminate is around 6 kgs/m2.This leaves 4 kgs for fibre and epoxy.

This gives around 300 kgs of epoxy for the hulls. These are pretty rough figures, but the 1200 kgs quoted by Gideon seems a bit high, especially if it is for the boat that weighs 4800 kgs ready to sail!

My estimate is for around 8-9% epoxy weight of the lightship weight(6800kgs) for an infused boat. LOA = 14.95m/49ft BOA 8.76m/28,7ft

My estimate is around half of what he quotes, so around 600 kgs. This brings the price difference down to around 5000 USD or way less than 1% of the production price.


Regards

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Old 13-04-2008, 11:07   #120
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On the 49 footer I'm working on the calculations are as follows for the weights:

HULL & DECK STRUCTURE1077,16BRIDGEDECK STRUCTURE978,48BULKHEADS, INTERNAL STRUCTURE & MODULES301,66

Total of: 2357 kgs.

This includes foam of 25 to 40 mm, glass, kevlar and carbon fibres and the epoxy. For a 25 mm foam at 80 kg/m3, the foam weighs 2 kgs. Total weight of laminate is around 6 kgs/m2.This leaves 4 kgs for fibre and epoxy.

This gives around 300 kgs of epoxy for the hulls. These are pretty rough figures, but the 1200 kgs quoted by Gideon seems a bit high, especially if it is for the boat that weighs 4800 kgs ready to sail!

My estimate is for around 8-9% epoxy weight of the lightship weight(6800kgs) for an infused boat. LOA = 14.95m/49ft BOA 8.76m/28,7ft

My estimate is around half of what he quotes, so around 600 kgs. This brings the price difference down to around 5000 USD or way less than 1% of the production price.


Regards

Alan
Obviously you have not build a boat yet Alan , with resin infusion there is a lot of wastage , around 32 % of the resin is in the diposables and is drawn out at the end of the infusion, our complete hull uses 585 kilos of resin that is without deck or any interior, we waius at least 185 of that figure in the transport material , peel ply , perforated foil, tubing and suck out resin. the total hull empty weights 1124 kilo on our load scales. and this includes the keels,foam glass , basalt , kevlar and carbon,the deck has a weight of almost 600 kilo and the rest is flooring bulkheads,furniture tanks etc. our net usage of resin is 850 kilo. I have yet to find the epoxy manufacturer that will give me a refund on wasted epoxy we have to pay for both used and wasted, maybe you get more lucky.
For yout info our completed hull structure with all modules inside weights 2245 kilo excluding the hard top bimini of 56 kilo.
Have you been feeding your cat fertilizer ? last time we conversed she was 47 ft
I am glad you are getting your weights down on paper , now in reality watch everything and sit on top of the people doing it , Before you know it they will ad something extra, also start a spread sheet for each product you manufacture, resin consumption for each product etc this helps in wastage for future products and controls you weights.

Warm Greetings

Gideon
p.s. you are always welcome to our factory and see us doing an infusion of a complete hull or deck etc, no sevrets in our factory.
If you go divinycell use the foam structure I designed designated
Z 47 , they have given it a new name recently but the infusion patterns is as follows
blocks of channels of 20 mm the channles are 2 mm deep 1 mm wide and on each second crossing there is a perforated hole of 1 mm.
The following companys now use it , swan-nautor, hanse,grand soleil, african cats.
5 years ago I ordered sheets of solid foam and made many possible infusion patterns to get the lowest possible weight in resin into the foam.
The resin intake for this Z 47 is 700 gramm per meter for both sides.
There is one type of foam with a lower intake but the price is just to much for us. High Performance Polymers - Application Fields - Lifestyle
I have tried airex , herex , high density balsa, and at least 5 other makes of foam but Diab ,s divinycell came out best in a price weight and resin intake.
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