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Old 09-04-2008, 15:13   #91
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Specs from Bote cote specifically say the fromulation is designed tp reduce allergenic response. Infusing resin is one of those with a higher response and the thicker stuff used for hand lay up has a lower.
Gideon,
I must have misremebered your post. Yes , impotence is still something I will try to avoid-NOT that this would necessarily get me any more.
Robert
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Old 09-04-2008, 15:29   #92
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Wear protection when working with resins and solvents

I'd wear a mask with an organic vapor cartridge (in the US, we'd say OSHA approved,) when doing any hand laminating with any of the resins-polyester, vinylester, or epoxy, and use plastic gloves, too. Keep all resins and solvents off of your skin-the chemicals go straight through your skin and into your body. When vacuum infusing, I wouldn't worry so much, as not much gets into the air, assuming reasonable ventilation in the workplace. Of course, in 90 degree weather, this would be a hardship, but those of us working with polyester or vinylester don't laminate in 90 degree weather. Here near Seattle, it doesn't get to 90 degrees Farenheit, so this is theory to me.
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Old 09-04-2008, 15:53   #93
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So in summary, based on all the data presented here, Vinylester is 6% weaker than epoxy, 20% less water resistant, will result in a heavier boat, and over 10 years suffers twice as much loss of it's structural proprties?

But by using it you might save a few thousand dollars.

I wonder, if given the choice, how may people would choose a weaker, heavier, less water resistant and less durable boat at a saving of less than 1% of it's cost? Oh yes, and one that might make you impotent.
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Old 09-04-2008, 16:48   #94
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Due to stress cycling and water penetration it is estimated that a hull constructed wholly from Epoxy resins will be at 98% of its year 1 strength after 10 years, a hull built of Vinylester resins will be at 96%, a hull built from Isopthalic Polyester will be at 94% whilst the use of traditional Ortho - Polyester might provide values as low as 50%."

So what this means to me is that if I buy a boat that is 15-25 years old (the old money thing ) then it could be as much as 50-65% weaker than new?????

WOW!

Those things are a danger then and should not be allowed to be sold.

Or they are so massively overbuilt that they are OK after all.

Now I am really in a quandary.

Guess I will have to work even longer...............
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Old 09-04-2008, 16:49   #95
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BigCat, have you investigated the differences in secondary bond strength?

Probably the most important joins in the boat will be where pre-cured components are joined together. When I was researching this a few years ago, the differences in bond strength between epoxy and vinyester were quite significant.
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Old 09-04-2008, 17:00   #96
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So in summary, based on all the data presented here, Vinylester is 6% weaker than epoxy, 20% less water resistant, will result in a heavier boat, and over 10 years suffers twice as much loss of it's structural proprties?

But by using it you might save a few thousand dollars.

I wonder, if given the choice, how may people would choose a weaker, heavier, less water resistant and less durable boat at a saving of less than 1% of it's cost? Oh yes, and one that might make you impotent.
In Europe epoxy build factory used yachts sell faster and bring much more money than there polyester or vinylester counterparts Try to find an epoxy build Grand Soleil or Hanse boat they build in both materials and Swan nautor has now even stopped building in Vinylester
It is my guess that in the long run an epoxy boat is cheaper to operate has less maintenance and will sail faster , safer and give more pleasure without spreading the Styrene smell that they have tried so hard in the Kyoto accord to get rid of because it damages our Ozone layer
In 5 more years open lamination will be outlawed in the western world ( with exception of the US because they have not endorsed the Kyoto agreements ) due to the styrene output and that is the reason for adding less styrene into the poly and vinylesters of this world.
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Old 09-04-2008, 18:41   #97
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Epoxy vs. vinylester, round 11 zillion and five

Well, Gideon - You are the one who said that it was too expensive to use fire-resistant epoxy, not me. I think that, based on my experiences of designing a USCG approved boat, that fire is one of the greatest dangers on the water, so IMHO, a fire-resistant boat is the way to go.

Yes, I know that you claim that your laminate is more squished, and so lighter, but you are also the person who claimed that vinylester is weaker than epoxy, which isn't true-in fact, your epoxy has a tensile strength in psi of 10,877, and the vinylester I just posted has a tensile strength of 13,200 psi, which makes your epoxy 17.6% weaker! But hey, if you want to save the planet by using a weaker, more flammable resin, who am I to argue?

I know, I know, you are stuck with epoxy because you are working at low atmospheric pressures, in a really hot shop, so infusing this superior product isn't really an alternative for you. Sorry!

BTW, this vinylester resin is stronger than your epoxy without heat treatment-the published tensile strengths are valid even without heat treatment, and the product will be even more elastic. (I have been talking to the tech at AOC.)

If Europe is full of people who think that epoxy is stronger than vinylester, I will just have to learn to be more skeptical when claims are floated that European kids have better math skills than Yankees. Yankee brains get a workout dealing with our old-fashioned measuring systems, you know!

If I were worried about secondary bonding, I'd use epoxy for that purpose only. I have never heard of secondary bonding problems in any but ultra light race boats being pushed too hard, however.

And, CruisingCat--I assume Gideon has quoted you correctly, (you are on my 'ignore' list, and I don't read your posts.)

You really must learn to read more carefully-one of my posts quoted a company that claims that epoxy boats will be 2% weaker thay they were to begin with, and vinylester boats will be 4% weaker after 10 years, not 50%. (I'll help you here, that's a 2% difference.) The 50% claim (I don't endorse the claim, I'm just reporting it,) was for orthophthalic polyester resin, the cheapest of resins.

You do know the difference between orthophthalic polyester resin and vinylester resin, don't you? Well, maybe not.
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Old 09-04-2008, 21:35   #98
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You really must learn to read more carefully-one of my posts quoted a company that claims that epoxy boats will be 2% weaker thay they were to begin with, and vinylester boats will be 4% weaker after 10 years, not 50%. (I'll help you here, that's a 2% difference.) The 50% claim (I don't endorse the claim, I'm just reporting it,) was for orthophthalic polyester resin, the cheapest of resins.
An epoxy boat will be 2% weaker after 10 years. A Vinylester boat will be 4% weaker. 4% is twice as much as 2% right? I wouldn't think that would be too hard for a maths genius.
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Old 09-04-2008, 22:09   #99
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BTW if you are ignoring my posts, how did you know I asked you about secondary bonding?
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Old 09-04-2008, 22:46   #100
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Hallo Big Cat this is a previous post from you


I used an online converter at Conversion Calculators - Convert MPa to psi- Chapel Steel
to convert MPA to PSI. I find that Gregor Tarjan, in "Catamarans-Every Sailor's Guide," is
right when he indicates that if epoxy resin has a strength of 10, then vinylester is a 9.5. Indeed, they are equivalent for strength and elasticity, if you compare your epoxy with Reichhold Dion 9300. I have attached the specs for the vinylester resin here-I think, the posting form gives me no indication that I have succeeded. At any rate, the document is online at
You better watch it since I did not know that Styrene had the effect of early age dementia, You are really stating here that Epoxy is 6 % stronger
I have the feeling you are a share holder in the Reichold company
I think I will have to put you on my ignore list. and all the info you are gathering is not correct.
Still good luck with your weaker Big Cat
Gideon
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Old 10-04-2008, 01:11   #101
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OOh, handbags at dawn. Stand ten paces apart and call each other names. I think I'm going to add this entire thread to my 'ignore' list.
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Old 10-04-2008, 02:10   #102
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Old 10-04-2008, 02:14   #103
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I have no dispute Gord I just like working with Epoxy better than any other resin
for about 20 reasons.
You wake up early !!!
Greetings and stay well
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Old 10-04-2008, 07:24   #104
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Using the specs for a top of the range Vinylester and comparig that to epoxy seems pointless. The buying public rightly or wrongly tend to rely on the norms for the type of resin. If the vinyesters in general use were close to the epoxies in general use there would be a better perception of them. I don't have the expertise to draw conclusions as to what the averages are but I would guess that on balance epoxies generally have noticably better properties and hence people are prepared to pay a premium for them.
Maybe the people who have created the good vinylesters should have thought up a new category for them, vinylemolesters maybe .
Until there is widespread knowledge of the smaller variations possible the general public will continue to prefer the epoxy products, and rightly so as we all can't be chemists or strucural engineers.

Mike
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Old 10-04-2008, 19:01   #105
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I'm a shill for Reichhold? I'll bet they want their money back-

My comments were about the product I recently discovered, made by AOC rather than Reichhold. If I were a flack for Reichhold, they'd be pretty upset with me right about now, because I am pointing out that the AOC product is quite a bit superior. The Reichhold product has about the same properties as Gideon's epoxy, so obviously, it's inferior.

Regarding the idea that beliefs must be true if they are popular, "Look Out!" you are in danger of falling off of the edge of the world when you sail beyond the horizon! The world is flat, you know!

O.K., I'm a little puzzled by the idea that I shouldn't supply facts which demonstrate that a popular belief is untrue, because people won't believe it. Isn't this how untrue beliefs get corrected?

I hate to confuse you gentlemen with the facts, but those with an interest in actual facts, they are posted at:
http://www.aoc-resins.com/images/uploads/K023.pdf
These properties may be compared with those that were posted by 'fastcat435.'
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