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Old 10-08-2008, 10:50   #16
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Hallo Gludy

You are right my 48 is faster and lighter than the 50 , the only differences between the 48 and the 50 are a longer sugar scoop and the rear underwater line was changed slightly due to a mistake in the mould. i was at the factory when that happended
There is no faster st francis than my 48 around and that all has to do with weight
11.5 tons versus 16 tons is a big difference but not so important to you.
I have seen the 2 boats on the dry and really they might call it a different boat but in fact it has a expended sugar scoop .

Greetings and happy sailing with your fantastic boat.
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Old 10-08-2008, 13:15   #17
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Gideon
I am stating that the 50 is faster than the 48 so we have to disagree on it.

Have you sailed a 50?

Gideon without wishing to be rude you told myself and my partner three times that you are the European exclusive distributor for St Francis and that it was a waste of time going over to the Bahamas to test sail the 50. That we should buy a St Francis through you etc. I know that you are not the European distributor for St Francis and so for this and a number of other reasons, I am sorry to say that the credibility you had with us has gone.

I do not want to debate this matter, I just thought that it is fair to tell you.

I never knew that you tried to sail slow on the test sail - that was news to me.

Originally you told me that I could plan on a 10 knots VMG when planning a long trip such as a Transatlantic with a FastCat but this was modified later to the 10 knots being a through the water speed. If this latter is the case then it does seem that the St Francis 50 is faster or at least as fast as a FastCat.

For your own credibility you need to provide verified proof to back up your claims.
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Old 10-08-2008, 13:27   #18
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Gludy, this makes you at least the fourth poster on this board to suggest that Gideon lies in order to further his economic interests. Careful, you are almost certain to be chastised by the board moderators for making derogatory personal remarks about Fastcat.
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Old 10-08-2008, 13:34   #19
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I am simply stating what I was told by Gideon and then stating what I have proof of. I did not put the two together - you did

Secondly I am stating that there is a credibility gap and so I asked for all claims to be reasonably proven to be true. A very simple position to take with a commercial vendor.
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Old 10-08-2008, 13:46   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gludy View Post
Gideon
I am stating that the 50 is faster than the 48 so we have to disagree on it.

Have you sailed a 50?

Gideon without wishing to be rude you told myself and my partner three times that you are the European exclusive distributor for St Francis and that it was a waste of time going over to the Bahamas to test sail the 50. That we should buy a St Francis through you etc. I know that you are not the European distributor for St Francis and so for this and a number of other reasons, I am sorry to say that the credibility you had with us has gone.

I do not want to debate this matter, I just thought that it is fair to tell you.

I never knew that you tried to sail slow on the test sail - that was news to me.

Originally you told me that I could plan on a 10 knots VMG when planning a long trip such as a Transatlantic with a FastCat but this was modified later to the 10 knots being a through the water speed. If this latter is the case then it does seem that the St Francis 50 is faster or at least as fast as a FastCat.

For your own credibility you need to provide verified proof to back up your claims.
Just come and race me once you can sail Paul, I will prove you wrong
And asl Duncan lethbridge ot Angelo Lavranos yhr difference between the 48 and the 50 besides the extended sugar scoops and the slightly modified rear underside to make the longer sugarscoop fit.
I have seen both and both sail good
Greetings

Gideon
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Old 10-08-2008, 13:51   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fastcat435 View Post
Hallo Gludy

You are right my 48 is faster and lighter than the 50 , the only differences between the 48 and the 50 are a longer sugar scoop and the rear underwater line was changed slightly due to a mistake in the mould. i was at the factory when that happended
There is no faster st francis than my 48 around and that all has to do with weight
Gideon
Did Gludy say that your boat is faster????? Where?

Are you the Exclusive European Distributor for St. Francis or not?

Looking forward to hear see your response to Gludy

Greetings

Alan
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Old 10-08-2008, 20:35   #22
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I too welcome your input on the forum and the many ideas you contribute.

You say
"There is no faster st francis than my 48 around and that all has to do with weight"

How can you make such a statement when you have not sailed the other St Francis 50's?

New to the using the sails bit of boating, I was frankly very confused with the St Francis 48 at first. On your web site its advertised as a FastCat 48 and at a very high price. You offered it for sale to me for 500,000 Euros ( alower price) but did not respond to my email pointing out that this was way over (not just a bit) what you paid for it. You also now claim that the SF boat is not the right boat for me because it requires more skill than I have or apparently will have to sail...

You told us its the lightest SF 48 in the world because you supervised the construction to save 50 per cent of the weight etc. Yet in the end all you could do is what all owners do - choose the options etc so as to save weight. Is that agreed?

I ask you when you have sailed a SF 50 and get no answer.

I thought hard and hesitated before allowing some of my doubts public expression. I am not here to do other than enjoy my sailing and the process of buying a boat but I found myself just having to challenge some of the claims you make - challenge you to prove them.

You told me that you have now sold up to hull 19. I thought (and correct me if I am wrong) that to the time of my visit 4 FastCats existed - so I was looking at 50% of the world stock sitting at the pontoon in Amsterdam.

Having sold up to hull 19 staring at what you call hull zero, that makes 20 FastCats in the bag and being produced at a rate of 7 a year - you are by any standards outselling just about everyone out there except the large production cats - an amazing feat which you should be proud about.

The new Fast Cats should appear on the market at the rate of over one every 2 months for the next two years, so you have every opportunity to have a growing number of customers supporting your speed claims.

In the over 4 years you have had the SF48 which you claim to be a demo boat, you have not sold her. I think if you charged anything like the price you paid for her she would sell straight away but that is just my opinion and I am a novice in the sail side of the market. You are not a St Francis dealer nor have you ever sold a St Francis boat so there is no need to keep her as a demo boat. She is a good boat.

I would also like to add that I made my novice stature perfectly clear on this forum - a forum that has been a great source of advice to me. You invited me over to Amsterdam on the basis of a trial sail that could show me what your boat could do.I never realised that you refuse to sell your boats to the inexperienced and would not have wasted my time and money in coming over had I known that was the case. Whenever did you get the idea that i could qualify to buy your boat when I openly declared that I had not sailed a cat before?

As regards any moderation on this forum all I have to say is that all I am doing is asking an openly declared commercial vendor on this forum to back up the claims he is making for his product as well as claims about third party products such as the SF 48 and SF 50.

To date my conclusion is that both the Leopard 46 and the SF 50 are faster boats than the FastCat - that is an amazing personal conclusion for me to make. That opinion coming from a rank novice in sailing may carry no weight anywhere and I ask anyone reading my opinion to understand that I am a novice in sailing, but it is my conclusion on the evidence in front of me because I sailed faster in the other two boats in light wind than the FastCat could manage in winds of two or three times the magnitude. Mind you I did not appreciate that You Gideon were intentionally sailing slowly with all the sails up in a 23 to 28 knot wind.

There was one point in the SF50 where we hit a squall when returning to port and lowered the mainsail in 31 knots of wind - that is on the video. However the winds were mainly 6 knots to 12 knots as was the case with the Leopard and I managed to understand, despite my novice status, how the boats performed at different points of sail.

As a novice I would have thought that sailing close to the wind which is what you have claimed for the FastCat sea trail was a less comfortable point of sail than a broad reach so I am now even more confused as to why in a sharp steep short seas you chose the most uncomfortable and slowest point of sail to demo the boat and how you managed to turn a full circle and return to port without going through other points of sail?

My suggestion to you with a FastCat being produced every two months is that you take one of the latest production boats, set up a series of independent verifiable tests and prove all the critics wrong. You have the power in your own hands to demonstrate what your boats can do.

I have communicated with a number of SF 50 owners who frequently get over 200 mile days and sometimes as high as 240 mile days as an exception. Are there any such customer results for the two existing FastCat customers?

Over to you Gideon. I want you to prove me wrong because in so doing I can only learn more about sailing and you can only have a great PR success that would sell even more FastCats.
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Old 10-08-2008, 21:12   #23
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Gludy, I'm completely jealous. We saw the SF50 at the last Miami boat show and couldn't stop going back for more looks. I'm really interested in your final layout as I would like to order one but with galley modifications. To be clear, your expecting delivery next year August?
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Old 10-08-2008, 21:52   #24
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I am hoping for delivery in the Spring - I am off to SA soon to see what can be done.

The boat will mainly for two of us.

Mods include removable raised flooring within the saloon galley, nav and seating areas so that my rather short other half can always see out even when seated.

Galley up with Galley in a U shape plus the entire galley down area as a galley with working surfaces, wine chillers. extra freezer, table top area for kitchen things like mixers, toasters etc. This extra area is good for extended cruising with only 2 of us on board.

Full video studio in the starboard hull aft section.

We are also reshaping the stern area supporting the rib so that we can easily walk by and around the rub.

We are doing many, many mods and SF are very supportive.

We managed light wind sailing within 0.5 knots of true wind speed - she is a naturally fast boat.
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Old 11-08-2008, 15:36   #25
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Gludy: Where do you planning to sail?
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Old 11-08-2008, 16:09   #26
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Basically around the world but we will just go where we fancy.

Certainly both sides of the Atlantic and then maybe later through the canal.

The boat represent freedom to us and we do not want to form a precise plan at this point.

We will probably start off in the UK then the rest of Europe and the Med.
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Old 11-08-2008, 16:14   #27
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Basically around the world but we will just go where we fancy.

Certainly both sides of the Atlantic and then maybe later through the canal.

The boat represent freedom to us and we do not want to form a precise plan at this point.

We will probably start off in the UK then the rest of Europe and the Med.
Sounds nice. Take a look at Great Lakes, looks very nice. Was Freydis on your list of catamaranes?
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Old 11-08-2008, 16:53   #28
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"Was Freydis on your list of catamaranes?"

It was on the early list but was dropped early on - basically because it was a bit spartan and a little under the size we were looking at although I liked its carbon rotating mast etc. Seems a good boat at a good price.
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Old 12-08-2008, 21:03   #29
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We are going on a test sail of the SF50 in Sydney this weekend.

I look forward to giving you some comments.

daniel
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Old 13-08-2008, 01:08   #30
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That will be much appreciated.

I think you will be delighted - it seems a very tolerant but fast boat.
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