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Old 18-11-2015, 12:49   #61
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Re: How old is too old?

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Originally Posted by Sail IC View Post
I'm not sure I agree to this.

My boat is a Fountain Pajot a mass production boat built 2008. I compared notes with a guy who owned an Antares 44 built 2007 generally viewed as a quality boat.

We both bought used boats, 5-6 years old. In the first year of ownership I have had no breakages, zero, where numerous items on the Antares had to be replaced or repaired.

I'm not disputing the quality of the Antares, but most of the items that breaks are of the same or similar make in both boats. A battery, waterpump, etc, of the same brand breaks as often in an Antares as in a FP.

His Antares had sailed around the world before he bought where mine had lived inshore protected life in Croatia, ie had much more usage than mine hence the many breakages on the Antares.

In comparing boats, you do have to have type of useage to equal, It wouldn't make sense to compare a production boat that has been chartered for five years to an older "quality" boat that rarely moves, is a one owner boat that is pampered would it?
But I do agree, a Yanmar is a Yanmar etc. Most fittings and equipment are the same, but they aren't where the real money is if something goes wrong, the real money seems to be in disbonded hull liners / grids, wet decks, blistering etc. Water pumps, bilge pumps etc. are nickel and dime by comparison
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Old 18-11-2015, 13:42   #62
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Re: How old is too old?

I'm with a64pilot on this one - as I said in my initial post, one also has to consider usage when comparing boats. I think one of the reasons that my boat was (apart from a spongey aft deck) fundamentally sound after 22 years is that she spent only 4 of those to date in salt water - the rest of her life was in the Great Lakes with fresh water and realistically, a 4 month sailing season. Yes, the initial construction was high quality, but she was used sparingly and reasonably well maintained.

Would I get back what I have invested in my boat if I were to sell her today? Almost assuredly not, even though she was surveyed for a higher value than that. However, nobody would invest in such a thorough refit and upgrades for the purpose of putting their boat on the market. I did this because I am now free to cruise full-time for the indefinite future, and am happy to know that my sails, rigging, fuel and charging systems, electrical systems, thru-hulls/seacocks, canvas, upholstery, hatches, portlights, lighting and most of the electronics etc.are new and should more trouble free than most 7 year old boats. Adding that to 'good bones' and she is worth that to me, which is precisely the question concerning value for anyone who does not intend to sell their boat in the forseeable future.

In buying an older, quality boat that has not been abused, one still gets the long-term benefit of that quality construction and at a price much depreciated from 5-10 year old boats. You will also likely, if the boat has been reasonably well maintained/upgraded over the years, end up with systems, sails, rigging etc. that is in no more need of replacement (or just as much need) as many boats that are 7 years old and still running on most of the original sails, rigging, electronics, etc.

Admittedly your boat will be less 'current', but for some of us that is no bad thing.
For example, I for one prefer the real teak interior trim/ash veneers in the interior of my boat, as well as the curved edges on all cupboard doors/tables/counters etc. over the plastic and sharp edges currently in vogue. But I guess most of all, I prefer the fact that I was able to get a well-built, comfortable, safe, ocean-worthy 40 foot cat with mostly new systems for half the price (or less) than a typical, high-volume, 5-10 year old cat of the same size.
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Old 18-11-2015, 15:58   #63
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Re: How old is too old?

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Dave,

My experience is that 7 years is the 'ideal' age as far as depreciation on a boat that has been reasonably well maintained. The major depreciation hot has occurred, any defective systems from the factory have been fixed, and the major gear still has years before major servicing is required, but small things like pumps may need replacing.

As for the 10% figure. It always seems high in the early years. But you don't expect to spend that every year. The percentage is accruing to cover new electronics at 10 years, standing rigging at 8-10 years, engine at 20, sails every 7, etc. on a good condition 7 year old boat I would expect to spend less than 5% the value per year in ordinary maintenance, but in effect you are pre-paying the cost of big ticket items so when they come due you aren't surprised.

Think of it this way, on a 70' cat a new mainsail is likely to be north of $50,000usd and last 5-7 years. By itself this adds $7-10,000 to the annual operating cost even if you don't replace it every year. A new Jib is probably around $25,000, so 3,500-5,000/ year. So on a $800,000 boat that works out to 10-15k, or 1.25%-1.8% the cost of the boat every year for sails alone.

You have some experience in engines and generators, so figure out what the replacement cost of the two engines is and figure 20 years service life. Same for the generator. Wiring will last around 20 years before it needs to be reworked, and that's another big chunk of change.

Add in all the other ancillary systems and it starts to add up pretty fast. And we haven't mentioned bi-annual haul outs for bottom paint, insurance, fuel, marinas, deck hardware, repainting, hotel refurbishing, etc.
I basically went through the same...

Boat built in 1989, major refit in 1997 and in 2015 after a dispirited previous owner...of course, it is worth doing only on a solid, classy, family boat....
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Old 19-11-2015, 15:46   #64
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Re: How old is too old?

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Originally Posted by Dave-Zim View Post
If the boat has been resonably well maintained, is 10 years old still a young boat?
Another data point >> my boat was 5 years old when I bought it 9 years ago. It was very well maintained, but I can say it's in better shape now than when I bought it. This takes a LOT of work and money, even when you do most of the work yourself.

As others have said, the good quality boats are easier to maintain well when it comes to the "permanent" parts of the boat - the structure itself. But the systems are rarely boat builder specific. A Yanmar is a Yanmar, a Volvo is a Volvo, and a Force 10 stove/range is a Force 10 stove/range a Harken winch is a Harken winch. It doesn't matter what boat they're on to begin with. The systems have been maintained or they haven't and they are gonna need care and feeding.

As for size, how many 55-70 foot cats have you spent time on? How many mainsails on a 55-70 foot cat have you removed and re-installed? On how many 55-70 foot cats have you compounded and buffed the hulls? Just the other day I helped another owner of my cat model re-install his mainsail. I was reminded of how much work it is. I would not want to do this regularly on a bigger boat. I suggest you be very sure you want that big of boat. It doesn't have to be that big to be comfy and safe.

Regardless, good luck with your plan. I bought my boat at age 52 and retired at 55 and the boat has been my "job" since. It is a full time job. It is a tremendous amount of work, and enjoyment. It is very easy to underestimate the amount of work and money you will need to keep your boat up to the standards you desire - even when you do your own labor. But keeping it up to your standards will enhance your enjoyment.

Dave
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Old 19-11-2015, 17:02   #65
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Re: How old is too old?

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Originally Posted by Southern Star View Post
However, consider various cats of that age (FP in particular) which suffer serious problems with osmotic blistering during that 5-10 year time period. My cat is 21 years old and has never had a single blister - she had multiple epoxy barrier coats below the waterline at the time of the build. Vinylester resin also helps.
Most FPs I know or heard of with osmosis developed it within five years. And were repaired under warranty. That includes a peel, dry and rebuild in glass and epoxy.
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My boat is also cored and yet the hulls have not suffered the delamination problems seen in many newer boats.
Which new cats have delam issues?
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Old 19-11-2015, 17:41   #66
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Re: How old is too old?

I'm an old guy, when I was building boats they were wood. Some of them are
still afloat, and we got out of the busness in 1962! Construction with fiberglass
is nice its very very easy to use and you can make any shape you want! What you
lose is longevity! There are wooden vessels still in service that were built 300 years
ago! You are not going to see that with fiberglass. The most optimistic expert
says maybe 100 years, and there are doubts about that
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Old 19-11-2015, 18:01   #67
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Re: How old is too old?

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There are wooden vessels still in service that were built 300 years ago!
Wow. OK, some examples? How much of that wood is original?

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Old 19-11-2015, 18:36   #68
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Re: How old is too old?

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folks do not realize that fiberglass layups continue to cure for decades, eventually becoming brittle. As long as the hull is under 30 years old, should be safe and sound. Beyond 40 years old and you are dealing with an increasingly brittle hull that eventually will either crack or delaminate.
Poppycock!!!!... disinformation on this and every internet forum is abundant as folks all know...
My 40 year old ship is Magnificent! It will be around 50 years from now with proper care...IT is stronger and sails about as well as the vast majority of boats in her class...It can be sailed anywhere...It has had gobs of money, many 10's of thousands, and time spent on it...(not mine)....every structural component has been refit, reworked, redone, custom refabricated to excellent standard. It was Thick, fat and ultra strong the day it came out of the Fl factory in '76. The original mild steel factory flaws have been replaced with SS. I would not trade her for anything!!!!
as has been said here...each and every boat is different and must be inspected with the utmost knowledge and care...A thick, old frp boat that was originally built to high strong standard, that sails well, is a good design and pedigree, that has been upgraded, refit, cared for, and had much money and time spent on her within the past 8 years or so...is vastly superior to most standard average 10-15 year old production boats...well, at least mine is anyway...and price.....ohhh we won't even get into that....
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Old 19-11-2015, 18:46   #69
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Re: How old is too old?

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Hi Stum,

...
Why do you say it's an awful lot of boat? They're not that big?
Have you personally sailed a 55-70' cat? Thats a lot of boat from every perspective. Huge amounts of space and huge sails.

Ive run a lot of cats, and one of my concerns for cats in that range for a cruising couple is that most have undersized winches selected under the assuption that the power assist will always work. If the winch motors fail then I dont think most cruising couples have the strength to handle those loads with undersized winches in a blow.

And of course all your other costs of ownership scale up too.
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Old 19-11-2015, 20:01   #70
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Re: How old is too old?

Rabbi, three quick examples of more current cats than mine with delam issues come to mind:

Lagoon 410, read 'Sailing the Whole Enchilada', Barbara Fleming
Wildcat?35 - Bumfuzzle - can't remember the brand for sure, but it was built in South Africa. Maybe you can help me out Rabbi - was that the brand?
Fastcat 40? I don't recall the size.

I know there are others, but without research I don't want to slander other manufacturers. Of course, we could talk about dislocated/cracked bulkheads on Lagoons (as well as rotting plywood floors under refrigeration units in Lagoon 440's) but why bother - -new cats have no structural problems, do they?

Did all blistering problems on FP's occur within 5 years? As frightening as it is to think that anyone could build a boat that would suffer serious osmotic blisters within 5 years ( and if I am not mistaken, that their hull warranty only applies to the unlucky original purchaser), I cannot imagine that usage won't make a difference, even to such poorly built boats. For example, boats sailed largely in fresh water, or sailed in the north where salt content is lower and boats can be hauled in the winter have probably not yet suffered significant blistering. let alone the blistering topsides (yes, above the waterline!!!) that certain FP's have suffered over the years.

Anyway, while some may wish to deny it, IMO build quality does make a difference.

Brad
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Old 19-11-2015, 20:18   #71
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Re: How old is too old?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Southern Star View Post
Rabbi, three quick examples of more current cats than mine with delam issues come to mind:

Lagoon 410, read 'Sailing the Whole Enchilada', Barbara Fleming
Wildcat?35 - Bumfuzzle - can't remember the brand for sure, but it was built in South Africa. Maybe you can help me out Rabbi - was that the brand?
Fastcat 40? I don't recall the size.

I know there are others, but without research I don't want to slander other manufacturers. Of course, we could talk about dislocated/cracked bulkheads on Lagoons (as well as rotting plywood floors under refrigeration units in Lagoon 440's) but why bother - -new cats have no structural problems, do they?

Did all blistering problems on FP's occur within 5 years? As frightening as it is to think that anyone could build a boat that would suffer serious osmotic blisters within 5 years ( and if I am not mistaken, that their hull warranty only applies to the unlucky original purchaser), I cannot imagine that usage won't make a difference, even to such poorly built boats. For example, boats sailed largely in fresh water, or sailed in the north where salt content is lower and boats can be hauled in the winter have probably not yet suffered significant blistering. let alone the blistering topsides (yes, above the waterline!!!) that certain FP's have suffered over the years.

Anyway, while some may wish to deny it, IMO build quality does make a difference.

Brad

Brad, from my experience the quality of build makes all the difference. Our last three catamarans, besides the one we just purchased were all between 15 and 21 years old when purchased. They were two Seawind 1000's and a PDQ 36, all three quality built boats and none of them showed any signs of structural degradation. In my opinion the quality of build makes all the difference.


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Old 19-11-2015, 20:24   #72
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Re: How old is too old?

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Originally Posted by lesterbutch View Post
I'm an old guy, when I was building boats they were wood. Some of them are
still afloat, and we got out of the busness in 1962! Construction with fiberglass
is nice its very very easy to use and you can make any shape you want! What you
lose is longevity! There are wooden vessels still in service that were built 300 years
ago! You are not going to see that with fiberglass. The most optimistic expert
says maybe 100 years, and there are doubts about that

I'm an old guy...I built,rigged, sailed boats at the CSY factory in '76....sorry, I wouldn't have an old wooden boat..much less take one to sea..
my boat and any cared for CSY and quality built others...will be around 100 years from now and beyond...Easy!...too bad I won't be around to collect on a wager..
I take no stock with the so called experts...engineering BS
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Old 20-11-2015, 21:40   #73
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Re: How old is too old?

So anybody heard troubles with1995 Jeantot Marine Privilege?


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Old 20-11-2015, 22:52   #74
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Re: How old is too old?

people think cats build like cars by robots. every boat from same manufacture and model is same quality.

Well, that is not the case. boat build for CEO of cat manufacturer will be lot better than cat build for rich yankee with accompanying attitude.

And for chinese, will be special build. Just glued together so it can stand 200m travel around the harbour 1x per year.
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Old 20-11-2015, 23:21   #75
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Re: How old is too old?

Im down at the Westerly Centaur stripping a winch. Produced circa '82 or ' 83. Just before production ceased I believe.

Its built like the proverbial brick outhouse. Ive tapped and examined every square inch inside and out. I have no idea how long plastic lasts. I dont have to caulk it or replace beams. One of our friends has Epoxy over plywood. We went over that as well and it was very sound. That from 1974.

I guess its the synthetics that keeps it waterproof in a big way.
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