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Old 16-10-2014, 20:53   #46
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Re: How much gain to windward with daggerboards in a big Cat

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What you are missing is that a faster cat with boards will necessarily have narrower hulls and a smaller payload. You won't be able to bring all those luxuries if you really want to sail. The ones you are eyeing are only marginally faster/lighter (if at all) and really only pay lip service to performance.

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Thank you for that Sailing Vessel Neko,
That has exactly been my experience of looking at 267 possibilities in the Southern Hemisphere before I bought the Helia as the best layout/gear with the most performance of what was available... I still keep an open mind on the matter and told my Wife: "When we see something we like better, we can trade it in.. The Helia is so good, we will not have trouble selling it or trading it up.." Words to that effect.. So far, still not seen it..

Kind regards, Helia
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Old 17-10-2014, 01:08   #47
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Re: How much gain to windward with daggerboards in a big Cat

Hi. I will be in a unique position to answer your question in a couple of months. I have owned a Schionning Cosmos 1430 for the last couple of years. It was designed to have dagger boards but the builder decided to make it with mini-keels instead.
I have been racing it regularly on Moreton Bay and while the other Schionnings in the fleet can match the monohulls for pointing ability, I am 5-10 degrees further off the wind and about another 7 degrees of leeway.
Having canvassed many opinions my boat is currently out of the water. We have taken a chainsaw to the keels and dagger boards are being retro-fitted. I will post the results when available...
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Old 19-10-2014, 03:47   #48
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Re: How much gain to windward with daggerboards in a big Cat

Hello Coops,
Wow, that is really a radical move... ! I am not envious, I think I am too old in my 60's, to tackle such an ambitious job.. Please DO TELL of your opinion on the results. I am not envious of the work, but respect your ambition!!

Now Coops, what a small world, my Wife thinks She knows you?? Amazing if this is true to stumble on you like this on an International Cruising Forum? She has been racing Cats for the past ten years. She thinks you are actually in Scarborough, and She sailed out of there quite a bit and thinks you have talked with her about this project.. WOW....!!!

I have finally relented and after much study have gotten us a dream boat, the Helia. We are not far apart, I am on the Sunshine Coast. I am also a Member of the MBBC (Morton Bay Boat Club) in the Marina in Scarborough.. I race for fun, last in the pack, my boat as a couple of tons of luxury on it... (I figure my Handicap at SCYC must be about 45 minutes... heh he..)

Anyway, we like the luxury of the Helia 44 and will do a couple of 10-12 week cruises a year, Whitsundays and such. I told Her if we ever see affordable luxury AND the daggerboards for sailing better up wind, we can always upgrade... Heh he. I do not have to win, racing is just for fun to me, Wednesdays and Sundays sailing with a purpose, when we cannot go cruising. I would just like to improve my handicap so we do not hold things up...

Anyway Coops, whether it is you or not, please do keep me posted. Right now I love the Helia but would like one with dagger boards.. This is just so I can race just to sail around locally with an agenda, I do not care if I win, just want to make it to the bar on time ... ha ha heh he...

... Helia 44
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Old 19-10-2014, 05:42   #49
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Re: How much gain to windward with daggerboards in a big Cat

No too many Cosmos 1430's with mini keels.
Me thinks Coops might be at RQYS T Row. Beamier than the std too?
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Old 21-10-2014, 19:42   #50
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Re: How much gain to windward with daggerboards in a big Cat

Correct 2Wind. T-Row at RQYS it is. The cosmos was originally a 13m design but this one was built stretched in both directions. 14.3m length 8.1m beam and 9500kg displacement (loaded).
There are some rigging changes in the current works but the boat will (eventually) get back in the water with the same sail wardrobe before new sails later this year so I am looking forwards to assessing the difference the boards will make and then what difference better sails will make to that.
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Old 21-10-2014, 21:13   #51
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Re: How much gain to windward with daggerboards in a big Cat

WOW!
Isn't that amazing, my Wife remembered talking with you, so this project must have been in the planning box for quite some time..

I will be VERY interested in following your progress and your testing in the field. You are a 1 in 1000 position to be travelling with the SAME boat going from mini-keels to dagger boards. My overall impression racing against two (much lighter and bare bones no facilities and no comfort) Cats up here, is that the gain is maybe only 5-7 degrees... They are both like 4-5 tons and less.

What I have found is to windward my weight (two tons of cruising luxury) is about 12.5-13 tons depending on tankage, and in 15-18 knots of wind I can give them a run for their money up wind. HOW? What happens is they are stopped by oncoming seas, where my weight ploughs on through with the inertia. They kill me off the wind though.. And downwind since I do not have a spinnaker or Aso, they also leave me for dead..

If you want, send me a PM with your contact Mob, and when we are at the MBBC I will see if you are available for drinks.. We stop in there in transit just for fun, if going south or coming back. I will probably be there in December... Either way, please stay in touch, you have my attention on your conversion results..

Right now I am thinking my dream boat would have the luxury and layout of the Helia 44, with daggerboards for that extra 5-7 degrees up wind... heh he.. Yea right, Fat Chance, but an excuse to go to the boat shows.. Just so when not cruising I can Club Race with an agenda excuse to go sailing on a race, instead of a pointless day sail to nowhere....

BTW, Catalina is moving down there when they sell their house up here, one more dedicated racer for your local Mob.. !!

Good to know you Coops, will tell my Wife She was right and You are the MAN!!
Kind regards, Helia 44
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Old 21-10-2014, 23:12   #52
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Re: How much gain to windward with daggerboards in a big Cat

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WOW!

-----------------------------------------------
Right now I am thinking my dream boat would have the luxury and layout of the Helia 44, with daggerboards for that extra 5-7 degrees up wind... heh he.. Yea right, Fat Chance, but an excuse to go to the boat shows.. Just so when not cruising I can Club Race with an agenda excuse to go sailing on a race, instead of a pointless day sail to nowhere....
------------------------------------------------------
Helia 44
Your dreamboat sounds just like a Freeflow 46 to me.
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Old 22-10-2014, 06:08   #53
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Re: How much gain to windward with daggerboards in a big Cat

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My overall impression racing against two (much lighter and bare bones no facilities and no comfort) Cats up here, is that the gain is maybe only 5-7 degrees...
Remember, angle upwind is only part of the story - VMG is the real goal. Those light cats might not be able to point as high as many other boats - but they're going a lot faster. Their apparent wind angle is likely in the mid 20s - or even tighter. Guess what angles the AC 72 cats tack through? 100 degrees. This means that even your boat may be able to "point" higher than they can.

2 Hulls Dave
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Old 22-10-2014, 09:37   #54
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Re: How much gain to windward with daggerboards in a big Cat

It's not going to make your upwind progress any better but these new winches will make everything easier. Harken and Selden both make reversible winches. From what I read you would typically just leave your mainsheet in there full time although you can put any line in there you want. No clutches etc. The Harkens are electric only I think. Flip a switch and you are reversing. The new Seldens are only manual. The neat trick about these is that the Selden handle has a push button on the top. Just push that and crank and you are easing out. That handle is a standard fit for just about any modern winch made and your regular handle will fit in there too only you can't reverse. The Selden has won awards as best new sailing gadget.
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Old 22-10-2014, 16:18   #55
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Re: How much gain to windward with daggerboards in a big Cat

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Remember, angle upwind is only part of the story - VMG is the real goal. Those light cats might not be able to point as high as many other boats - but they're going a lot faster. Their apparent wind angle is likely in the mid 20s - or even tighter. Guess what angles the AC 72 cats tack through? 100 degrees. This means that even your boat may be able to "point" higher than they can.

2 Hulls Dave
Well, I have to admit, 2 Hulls that is all over my head. Calculating the side drift and tacks angles and VMG that is all way out there. I will play with the Garmin a bit more, because it has some or all of that capability but it is over my head.

By my dead reckoning experience I am learning that I cannot tack when it looks I will just make the mark. When I am racing I need another maybe ten degrees to account for that side drift when pointing as high as I can... My mini-keels count for some, but not that much. When I tack thinking like a monohull person I inevitably come to failure...

Mind you, it is tough doing Single Handed racing efficiently, but it is quite the challenge and I get some self esteem out of it if I even finish.. I still need to figure out some plotting where I can get 2 more knots for 10 degrees on a hard beat... They hand tough, where if I fall off that 10 degrees and pick up two more knots and plow through the seas I wonder if I can tack and still catch them. I do not have enough experience with the Cats to know yet, but I will experiment around. 9 knots to weather pushing through the seas is really fun, but so far has not been productive...

Thank you for that technical stuff, even if it did not register yet...
Helia 44
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Old 22-10-2014, 16:56   #56
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Re: How much gain to windward with daggerboards in a big Cat

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Well, I have to admit, 2 Hulls that is all over my head. Calculating the side drift and tacks angles and VMG that is all way out there. I will play with the Garmin a bit more, because it has some or all of that capability but it is over my head.
I'm a little familiar with Garmin plotters, but decent plotters should have a VMG read out if they have the wind inst and speed in put and heading input. But regardless, this will eventually come to you in an instant as you sail upwind. You don't have to calculate anything - you feel it on individual boats. Zen. The Force. You have to go out and sail upwind and acquire the "feel" for every individual boat. Time on the helm upwind is essential. There is no shortcut. Sail the boat.

Long before GPS and plotters and calculated VMG, racers were sailing upwind competitively. Sight on the water, feel in the helm, feel in the motion of the boat, wind on your face, tell tales. Essence. The boat becomes an extension of your body, of your mind. Zen. See that puff coming. Lift or header? React. Anticipate. All puffs feel first as lifts due to the lag in boat speed. React. Head up, fall off. Keep the tails flowing. Jib is the teller. Read it first. Steer the boat. Sail.

2 Hulls Dave
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Old 24-10-2014, 10:24   #57
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Re: How much gain to windward with daggerboards in a big Cat

I'm curious about VMG readouts. How do they work with plotters? I assume you would need to have a waypoint for it to calculate VMG to? I haven't seen a VMG setting on my Raymarine plotter, how do you set it up on yours ?
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Old 24-10-2014, 18:22   #58
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Re: How much gain to windward with daggerboards in a big Cat

The best VMG (velocity made good) upwind "readout" - in my view - is the feel acquired by the helmsman on a particular boat. This is the same "groove" found by dinghy sailors who usually don't have any instrumentation other than tell tales.

VMG is simply the component of a sailboat's velocity that is in the direction of the true wind. There's also a VMG downwind, useful on boats fast enough to take advantage of gybing downwind to bring the apparent wind far enough forward to "reach" on alternate tacks to a dead down wind destination.

GPS and plotters have nothing to do with VMG - the concept has been around ever since boats were built that could sail upwind - but a good plotter or wind instrument (with speedo) should have a VMG calculator. It's just simple trig requiring only the wind angle and boat speed - either through the water or over ground.

I have B&G instruments that read out both VMG U and D. My Furuno plotters do an upwind calc, based on the wind inst and water speed from NMEA, and have an option for GPS SOG instead of the paddle wheel. Plotters should also be able to calc VMG to a waypoint, but a waypoint isn't required for theoretical VMG.

The fly in the ointment is leeway. This is where GPS can refine the calc to use COG and SOG instead of just speed. When they don't do that, it comes back to the helmsman's feel.

I have found that sailing to VMG electronic isn't practical. When I monitor VMG SOG U on my instruments, it is not a stable readout and jumps up and down way too much to be useful for real time helm adjustments - it's a lagging indicator. Its very valuable use is to acquire the "feel" finding the groove upwind. Monitor it over time to bracket in on the apparent wind angle corresponding to the best VMG for given conditions. In other words, get the feel for best VMG based on AWA, then confirm it by comparison to a VMG readout over time. Then just use your boat's best AWA as a target.

VMG D (downwind) is not useful at all for most cruising cats as very few can take advantage of gybing downwind. Dead down wind is always the fastest route. But VMG D can confirm this if you're not otherwise convinced.

2 Hulls Dave
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Old 25-10-2014, 02:16   #59
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Re: How much gain to windward with daggerboards in a big Cat

Thanks Dave. I'll have to look into it and see if our plotter or wind gear has a VMG option. I understand the groove which is what I usually sail by. Recently I was sailing upwind and at 35 apparent felt like I was pinching doing 5 K, at 40 app felt in the groove at 6 K and at 45 app felt like I was too far off the wind at 7k, but I did wonder if falling off for the extra K would have made for a better VMG. I guess I should draw a line 6cm long and another at an angle of 5 degrees and 10 degrees and measure the ends of the lines to check the distance lost
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Old 25-10-2014, 07:25   #60
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Re: How much gain to windward with daggerboards in a big Cat

The VMG math is here.
Faster thanks to the VMG concept! | Lagoon Inside

The variables are changing current and the time and speed lost while executing the tack.
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